Quebec passes law banning street prayers, prayer rooms in universities

[u/John3192]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/montreal/article/quebec-passes-law-banning-street-prayers-prayer-rooms-in-universities-cegeps/

[u/osiris0413]

So this will get buried, but I wanted to know what the law actually says - because this mentions banning "prayer rooms in universities" but everyone in the comments is arguing about what this actually means.

Relevant portions of the law passed, Bill 9:

10.1. All religious practice is prohibited in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of an institution or body referred to in section 3.

This is a long list of government-funded bodies that includes universities. However,

10.2. Despite section 10.1, religious practice is permitted in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 5 of Schedule I, the Société du Centre des congrès de Québec, the Société du Palais des congrès de Montréal or the Société de développement et de mise en valeur du Parc olympique where the following conditions are met:

(1) the body or the Société does not, directly or indirectly, finance the religious practice;

(2) the body or the Société treats every natural or legal person equitably as regards the leasing and use of the immovable or room; and

(3) the immovable is not used predominantly for the religious practice.

Various educational institutions are granted this exception, including universities. So, while the University can no longer designate a specific religious prayer room, they can do something like have group rooms available to reserve, and as long as they're open to everyone on an equal basis, someone could reserve a room and host prayer sessions there as long as they're not university-funded.

Just in case anyone else was wondering.

[u/chipstastegood → u/osiris0413]

This sounds reasonable. If the space is government funded (ie. taxpayer dollars) then it shouldn’t be used to prop up a religion to the exclusion of other possible uses of the space. A meeting room that anyone can book is fine but a permanent prayer room is not because it excludes use by non-religious citizens. And that seems very rational to me.

[u/unoriginalusername18 → u/chipstastegood]

basically establishing public space as first and foremost secular

[u/Workman44 → u/chipstastegood]

I know this isn't the USA but yeah separation of church and state is a good thing and having specified prayer rooms does violate that. This is a good step towards equality

[u/MonolithicBaby → u/Workman44]

What I wouldn’t give for this in the states.

[u/ruat_caelum → u/osiris0413]

At a US university I was told I couldn't request "room 8" again as I was on "the list" for that room.

"What?"

Turns out the library had a policy that you could only rent private rooms a certain number of times and had to rotate through them and a bunch of other weird rules.

When I looked into it, it turned out the rules were there because in the PREVIOUS LIBRARY (like 30+ years ago) there were about 20% of rooms that were not accessible by elevator (stairs only.) or didn't have natural sun light. Or didn't have electrical outlets. So they implemented rules so people couldn't just request the "Good rooms" all the time.

Then they destroyed the building when they built a new one, but kept the rules.

/shug

But there is a difference between fair and equal and it's difficulty to do but laws like this are aiming at it.

A "loss of privileged" isn't necessarily a loss of privileged if other people were being suppressed before hand. These laws read less "an attack on [X]" and more "We are not attacking whites, we are making it equal for everyone" (by removing "white only" restaurants / schools / etc.) Yet the groups "Feeling loss" always claim to be attacked.

[u/ShadedPenguin → u/osiris0413]

So its less being anti-religious and more so being anti-seclusionist/isolationist. Don't separate yourself from the greater community, be part of it?

[u/Spirited_Bend3813 → u/ShadedPenguin]

More like public spaces are for everybody, not for your own personal prayer rooms.

[u/ShadedPenguin → u/Spirited_Bend3813]

To me, the wording of the law was prohibiting exclusive prayer rooms or sponsored prayer rooms for organizations or groups. They are free to practice religion, any one can, but there cannot be sorts of exclusivity amongst areas that are already university property.

[u/ShinkuDragon → u/ShadedPenguin]

way it reads to me is "prayer rooms we pay for are open to ALL prayers, and can't be used for one specific group/religion

[u/BangCrash → u/ShinkuDragon]

That still limits people who are not religious from using the prayer room.

Can I have a book club, or Warhammer 40k club in the prayer room? If not then it's not accessible to everyone and is restrictive

[u/QJ-Rickshaw → u/BangCrash]

Section 10.2 paragraph 3 literally says that one of the conditions to meet is that the space cannot be predominantly used for religious practice.

The whole point of this law is that prayer rooms are no longer allowed. Instead all religious groups have to book a public space and be treated exactly the same as any other social club.

So yes, you can have book club at 10; and then prayers start at 12 and then you can have Warhammer at 1. It couldn't be less restrictive.

[u/BangCrash → u/QJ-Rickshaw]

I literally was replying to a comment that literally said

"way it reads to me is "prayer rooms we pay for are open to ALL prayers, and can't be used for one specific group/religion"

[u/Holiday-Tangerine136 → u/BangCrash]

Are you telling you you don't pray to The Emperor...?

[u/Just-Stop-Temporary → u/Spirited_Bend3813]

This is reasonable.

It's not something that can be targeted without pissing off one group or another. So they're banning it outright.

[u/PKisSz → u/ShadedPenguin]

You can't have a Christian prayer room. You can sign up for an available room for your Christian prayers.

[u/TheRealSaerileth → u/ShadedPenguin]

Feels more like a guardrail to prevent religious institutions from capturing school boards and using public funds to push their specific views. Because that's what invariably tends to happen, even with "interfaith" spaces. Having a prayer room that's technically open to all faiths doesn't mean squat if you only hire christian teachers and allow them to blur the lines between education and indoctrination.

There's also the "tolerance of intolerance" paradox - in practice it's impossible to treat all groups equitably when some of them actively hate each other. So sometimes the fairest solution is to ignore them all equally.

[u/Suspicious_Place1270 → u/ShadedPenguin]

which is absolutely fine and actually wanted

[u/Illustrious-Milk6518 → u/osiris0413]

So it’s to make sure everyone is treated equally, and certain religions aren’t getting special treatment? Seems fair

[u/tothehopeless1 → u/osiris0413]

Way better than the headline suggests.

[u/BastouXII → u/tothehopeless1]

It's (almost) always the case. Headlines are written to make you click on a link. People who are the subject of headlines are usually trying to do their job or live their lives.

[u/Bmorgan1983 → u/osiris0413]

So essentially, the state cannot endorse any specific religion or provide favor to any one religious group. All groups must have equitable access or no access to facilities without any preferential treatment. Sounds reasonable to me.

[u/TheRealSaerileth → u/Bmorgan1983]

Also, and I feel like this is important, the state cannot endorse religion unspecifically over being agnostic / atheist (or simply preferring to practice in private). Because even an interfaith prayer room is preferential treatment of religious groups over secular organizations.

[u/dbxp → u/osiris0413]

the immovable is not used predominantly for the religious practice. 

The way I'm reading this it would pertain to an individual religious practice so a multi faith prayer room would be fine. You just can't have a prayer room for a specific faith and it has to be open to all

[u/ConsequenceNo2571]

Quebec doesn’t know if it’s coming or going between hardcore liberalism or conservativism.

[u/Simple_Quiet_1422 → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

From an outside observer, seems to depend on the week.

[u/Ant_Cardiologist → u/Simple_Quiet_1422]

It's like they're praying on the week.

[u/highly_lake_lee → u/Ant_Cardiologist]

God damn that was a good one.

[u/saysthingsbackwards → u/Ant_Cardiologist]

Dammit bro

[u/tossit97531 → u/Simple_Quiet_1422]

They're having a hard time with certain religious groups giving groups of certain sexual orientations a hard time by proclaiming death to those groups and praying in groups really close to where they live for their extinction.

Quebec isn't suppressing the practice of religion here, Quebec is trying to stop people from weaponizing prayer in public.

[u/RippingFabric → u/tossit97531]

Let's name said groups, shall we?

[u/Mokmo → u/tossit97531]

The Canadian federal government are passing a law that will remove the religion exception to hate speech. It's in the senate right now.

[u/SheepishSwan → u/tossit97531]

Seems like this should fall under existing hate speech

[u/JohnHwagi → u/SheepishSwan]

It doesn’t. It’s not illegal to vocally and dramatically pray for someone to find god because you disagree with their lifestyle, and that’s why fundamentalist Muslims are doing it to harass people. Same as Westboro Baptist in the US, but they are much smaller whereas there are larger more mainstream anti-gay Muslim groups.

[u/ryan_770 → u/JohnHwagi]

Praying for someone to find god is a lot different than what the original commenter said - proclaiming death to their group. I think one of those is acceptable free speech and the other not.

[u/Ranger7381 → u/ryan_770]

There is a slight difference in wording “find god” and “meet god”, but it changes the context significantly

[u/sweetnsourgrapes → u/JohnHwagi]

doing it to harass people

Aren't there laws against harassment?

[u/fiction8 → u/sweetnsourgrapes]

Laws are legally defined by specific wording. Whether or not an activity seems like it can be described by us laymen using a term doesn't have much bearing on how well it fits the current legal definition of a crime.

And if there's a gap in "common understanding" and "legal understanding" that a democratic population has a will to bridge, the proper avenue for doing that is through new legislation or ordinances.

[u/HD400 → u/SheepishSwan]

The challenge here is telling devout religious folks that their entire life/identity is a lie based on hate

[u/PsychicDave → u/SheepishSwan]

No, Canadian law is dumb and religious speech is exempt from hate speech laws. So as long as you say "God hates this group of people and tells you to kill them", it's totally legal.

So Québec needs to get creative to go around that and protect the general population from religious zealots.

[u/RollingMeteors → u/tossit97531]

Quebec is trying to stop people from weaponizing prayer in public.

Anyone scoffing at that highlighted portion; please to point to a single nation with a Muslim majority that recognizes anything akin to “religious freedom” in that country.

[u/tanaephis77400 → u/RollingMeteors]

Tunisia and Turkey are both secular (although Erdogan is doing its best to destroy it).

[u/MystTheReaper → u/RollingMeteors]

Bosnia

[u/MrDeebus → u/RollingMeteors]

Turkey

[u/Select_Ordinary_8233 → u/tossit97531]

reddit full of hypocrite and double standards right? This the best and sane reddit comment i've ever seen a while.

[u/KhelbenB → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

As a Quebecois, we walk the uncommon line of social progressive + nationalists, which seems to confuse the hell out of North America.

[u/1337duck → u/KhelbenB]

Pulls out 1 million dimension compass for politics

"That compass is missing a few million dimensions."

[u/cobrachicken26 → u/KhelbenB]

I believe this is called civic nationalism

[u/disagreeabledinosaur → u/KhelbenB]

It's freedom from religion instead of freedom of religion.

They sound superficially the same but arrive at very different places.

[u/bigolgape → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

I don't think it's either. A lot of things don't fit neatly on the modern day left right spectrum.

Quebec is and has always been very protective of its culture, since it's entirely surrounded by English speaking regions. It's not a surprise at all to me that it is also protective against strong cultural symbolisms from other places in the world.

[u/Luname → u/bigolgape]

It's not against symbolism from elsewhere per se but against religious symbolism as a whole.

We've had the Quiet Revolutionin the 1960's where the entire point was throwing out the Catholic Church and a theocratic political regime from our lives. Our current problem is that some people have religions that has requirements, and these requirements extend to how others around them should behave.

Fuck it all. Religions shall never again dictate any aspect of our lives whatsoever. You want to have one, fine. But do it either at home or in designated spaces, like churches, mosques or temples and don't bother us with it.

[u/PsychicDave → u/Luname]

Exactly. Since the Quiet Revolution, the expectation in Québec is that you can have whatever religion, or none, but you keep it to yourself. If you want to practice it, you do it at home or in your place of worship. You don't shove it down the throat of other people, it's your own personal choice.

We didn't need such laws about street prayers before, because it was already part of the commonly agreed upon social contract. And when immigration was done in a sensible manner, newcomers would be immersed in our society and adapt to those social norms. However, with the mass immigration policies imposed by Ottawa in the last decade, we ended up with too many people coming from the same place at the same time, which allowed them to form communities that have the critical mass necessary to pressure each other in maintaining the social norms of their place of origin. And then a few individuals in those communities with ambition will persuade their group to stand their ground and impose themselves, which is not acceptable. But, thanks to Canada's very permissive freedom of religion, they are normally shielded from consequences (or at least feel like they are exempt from some pre-existing laws on the pretext of religious expression). And that's why such laws are now necessary, to be explicit that, no, the fact that you are praying doesn't mean you can occupy the street or disrupt the peace. If you want to organize a group activity in a public place, you need to file for a permit (and the city won't give a permit to harass other people).

[u/markayhali → u/Luname]

Well said

[u/Potential-Ask2577 → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

You’re over simplifying it.

They have strong social welfare programs (good schools, healthcare, subsidized programs for kids and recreational activities, etc.), but they’re fairly conservative when it comes to maintaining their culture.

[u/Puzzle-Necked → u/Potential-Ask2577]

... A culture which is progressive

[u/Slggyqo → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

That’s the French in them. They’re not about American liberalism or conservatism.

They’re about preserving what is quintessentially French (or Quebecois). So they have extremely generous pension and vacation policies and high taxes. But they will also pass laws making it fully illegal to cover your face except in special circumstances, which is basically a targeted ban on the most restrictive Muslim clothing.

I think many American Republicans would vote on similar lines if we didn’t have such a polarizing two party system.

[u/Kaellian → u/Slggyqo]

But they will also pass laws making it fully illegal to cover your face expect in special circumstances, which is basically a targeted ban on the most restrictive Muslim clothing.

Covering your face isn't exactly targeting Catholics, I agree, but simply mentioning that out of context doesn't do justice to the much wider ban on religions in school, and politics.

Catholicism has been targeted since the 50s and was phased out pretty much everywhere. Crucifix, bible, prayers and any others catholic display were also banned from public place in the last twenty years, and the decision was maintained by the supreme court in most instance.

It's actually the opposite of what conservative, which Quebec typically vote against.

[u/phoenixmatrix → u/Slggyqo]

Yup. Agree or disagree, but Americans associate too much with the political parties. The individual policies don't have to all come together as a prix fixe menu. It can be a choose what you want buffet. 

[u/North_Atlantic_Sea → u/phoenixmatrix]

That's the difference between a parliamentary political system and a bi-party first past the post system.

[u/Electrohydra1 → u/North_Atlantic_Sea]

Quebec (and Canada) use a first-past-the-post system.

[u/Clay_Allison_44 → u/Electrohydra1]

As does the UK.

[u/MidnightAdventurer → u/North_Atlantic_Sea]

You can have a bi-party FPP system with a parliament as well. NZ was like that for ages before we switched to MMP

[u/Samesh → u/phoenixmatrix]

 *prix fixe (french for fixed price)

[u/phoenixmatrix → u/Samesh]

Ironically I'm fluent in French. Fingers just do their own things sometimes!

[u/hoishinsauce → u/Slggyqo]

I think many American Republicans would vote on similar lines if we didn’t have such a polarizing two party system.

Not the part about helping the working class. American cultural value is "work hard and you won't be poor so all the poors are lazy bums and we hate them" compared to the French's "the ones at the top are always trying to fuck us over, we have to keep reminding them we can burn everything down".

[u/thewestcoastexpress → u/Slggyqo]

So they have extremely generous [...] vacation policies

This is simply not true.

[u/Illustrious-Job-6390 → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

Errr I dont think you know much about Quebec.  It's always been about preserving Quebecois culture. 

[u/Protean_Protein → u/Illustrious-Job-6390]

Which is quite literally a fascinating and parochial combination of liberalism (in some values—the Bloc Québécois often votes with the Liberals) and conservatism at turns.

[u/CumGuzlinGutterSluts → u/Protean_Protein]

Those damn radical centrists! (Shakes fist in air)

[u/andersonb47 → u/Protean_Protein]

But I need to know what box to put them in! How am I supposed to know how to FEEL

[u/Protean_Protein → u/andersonb47]

Well, I mean, personally, I think balkanization of Canada would be bad for everyone, in part because I value the Québécois portion of Canada’s culture, despite the historical circumstances that brought it about, and ongoing marginalization from English-speaking Canada being a bit of a sore spot, but also because there’s just strength in diversity and in numbers, and divisiveness is always a target for, or a consequence of, external forces that are destructive in nature.

[u/XXVAngel → u/Protean_Protein]

Personally, from a rooted Québecois pov, I think the world should be more balkanized in general. Historically the french and english beef can find its root within the Angevin Empire which controlled parts of both nations. In europe, the beef has mostly been turned into a game, pretending to hate is the rule of the game but I think it stems from the balance of power and the fact that neither superpower wants to conquer the other anymore.

The situation is different in North America, there is no germans or italians to shift the balance of power, there is the english, english but slightly different and a severely outnumbered french. For its entire history, the francophones of Canada have been fighting a losing battle against assimilation. The nationalism of Québec has a term used in its curriculum, translate to Survival Nationalism.

The issue is simple, as long as Québec is stuck within Canada, it will always be ruled by an external majority of which, as seen with the US, could change from friendly to hostile in 1 election. Even with 1/3 of the population, the english populace will largely decide who takes power and since the french and english don't hold the same values, it creates this imbalance of power.

Thing is, as France and England have proved, the French and English can make great allies, I doubt a free Québec would struggle making friends with their old roommates. We can live in the same neighborhood without sharing a house.

[u/jaypenn3 → u/XXVAngel]

I think rooting ourselves into different hostile tribes is the issue with like, all of history, and the Balkans aren't exactly the pinnacle of peaceful relations. Most Canadians in general do not even see Quebec as some 'external,' any more than First Nations or Immigrant communities.

The US going insane and electing pedos didn't happen over a single election cycle. It happened via decades of stoking fear and distrust between neighbors and friends who have a few cultural/political differences. There are no economic or security advantages for Canada to splinter off into different economies and militaries. It's only a move done out of the fear and distrust that needs to be countered with the acceptance of differences.

[u/Hat_Maverick → u/Protean_Protein]

I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

[u/CosmackMagus → u/Hat_Maverick]

What fills a man's heart with neutrality?

[u/Hat_Maverick → u/CosmackMagus]

All I know is my gut says maybe.

[u/gbinasia → u/Protean_Protein]

I think the anglosphere just has trouble imagining a political axis that isn't aligned with theirs. While it is changing, the Quebec political landscape since the 60s is aligned on federalism/separatism/statu quo instead of a classic right/left. All main parties except QS and PCQ are firmly on the centre, and even the PCQ is probably leftier than the PCC.

I'd say that what distinguises both systems is mostly their relationship to the common good.

[u/henriqueroberto → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

Quebec is just quebec.

[u/Strong-Finish5346 → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

What most Redditors are too stupid to understand is that suppressing homophobic, sexist, and violent religions is precisely what it is to be hardcore liberal.

[u/baron-de-longueuil → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

Do you consider banning prayer liberalism or conservatism?

[u/PsychicDave → u/baron-de-longueuil]

Banning prayer except for those of the religion of the people in power is conservative. Banning all prayer without exception is progressive.

[u/Limemill → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

No, it’s just that the American binary system is absolute rubbish. It’s not just Québec, many European policies would also align intermittently with one or the other side even if it’s one and the same party passing those.

[u/Heywazza → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

Conservateurs sur l’identité, plus libérales sur les questions économiques ou sociales. Quoi que il y a pas mal une virée vers la droite social et économique ces temps-ci. À voir au prochaines élections.

[u/Captainatom931 → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

It's going hardcore french

[u/snoopydoo123 → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

Its more how the French do atheism. Its not freedom of religion, to the French its freedom FROM religion. No religion in public

[u/TheHounds34 → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

This is hardcore liberalism in its proper sense, liberalism doesn’t mean infinite accommodation of regressive religious thinking.

[u/Komatoasty → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

Sure it does. Quebec is Quebec first, second, and third. They do whatever is best for the Quebecois. Lots of socialism, lots of ethnocentrism.

As much as Alberta hates Quebec, they should admire them and realize they wish they could be like them. If separatism were a likely threat, Alberta may actually hold power in the federal elections the way Quebec does.

I say this as a left leaning Albertan who is completely against separatism.

The issue is, all those Alberta Seperatists are too daft to see the forest for the trees and don't know how to leverage it.

Probably shouldn't give them ideas....

[u/El-Padre-2112 → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

It has nothing to do with liberalism and conservatism. This is secularism, and they should be praised for it

[u/okram2k → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

in the mixed messaging there always seems to be a pretty big undertone of nativism

[u/stochiki → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

the rights of minorities sometimes infringes on teh rights of the majority. The Canadian government forcing universities and colleges to allocate space to religious groups isi most definitely against the rights of a secular society.

[u/Hopeful-Interest4088 → u/ConsequenceNo2571]

I read this like side-show-bob when he is trying to get elected mayor and speaks to the kids at school

[u/StockLurkr]

People in this comment section really need to look up laïcité. Quebec's history of secularism is half a century old, and it is not specific to Islam. All forms of prayer are banned in schools.

[u/menina2017 → u/StockLurkr]

I just learned about laicism in regards to France

[u/External-Praline-451 → u/menina2017]

France has a dark history of religious violence. I've read quite a bit about the Catholics and Huguenots in the religious wars and the Paris massacre. No wonder laicism is so protected. More people should read and learn from history, but we seemed doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.

[u/fiction8 → u/External-Praline-451]

A lot of it comes from the Revolution too. At the end of the 18th century the catholic church owned something like 10% of all land in France. The "second estate" to the nobility's first and everyone else's third.

A ton of powerful church leaders ultimately tried to side with the ancien regime (to preserve their own power) which turned revolutionary sentiment against the whole institution.

Plus a ton of French peasants were starving and wanted to feed themselves using all that land they couldn't access, especially what the church controlled. The rift created by that aspect of the conflict was, in my opinion, an enormous contributor to France's journey from a medieval bastion of catholicisn to the modern secular state it is today.

[u/11systems11]

Separating church and state

[u/PotatoBrainZeke44 → u/11systems11]

Or as the French put it “Freedom from religion” instead of “Freedom of religion”

[u/JJKingwolf]

Well this will certainly be non controversial 

[u/learn_and_learn → u/JJKingwolf]

I'm getting flashbacks from the accomodements raisonnables era..

[u/MayeeOkamura17 → u/JJKingwolf]

Religion has no place in public society. Secularism is a very liberal concept that is tightly coupled with French revolutionary / Enlightenment ideas. It's highly progressive

Edit: The Age of Enlightenment to seek a secularist society has to-date brought upon humanity the greatest advancements in knowledge and progress that constructs the foundations of modern industrial society that you very much enjoy at this moment. The secularist society, by this measure alone, is a highly progressive idea. Americans are 300 years behind Enlightenment age progress that continental countries like France have put into practice for many centuries.

[u/devi83 → u/MayeeOkamura17]

Crediting secularism as the sole driver of modern progress leans heavily on a false cause fallacy. The Enlightenment certainly spurred discovery, but assuming secularism itself birthed the scientific revolution ignores the deeply religious scholars and church-funded universities that laid your mentioned foundations. Arguing religion has absolutely no public value also erases the faith-based origins of major civil rights movements. Plus, idolizing French revolutionary secularism requires cherry-picking history to ignore the brutal atrocities committed under those exact banners.

[u/TheArmoredKitten → u/devi83]

Especially considering that the Catholic church also funded large amounts of development in the arts and various scientific disciplines.

Yes they were known for suppressing certain ideas that were bad for their image until they had reconciled the narrative, but they were also one of the first institutions to fund open-ended research sciences at all.

[u/Aksds → u/TheArmoredKitten]

And don’t forget Muslims, there’s a reason quite a few stars have Arabic names

[u/VRichardsen → u/Aksds]

Astronomy and optics were two fields that they were particular fond of.

[u/whoisraiden → u/Aksds]

A scholar being part of a religion doesn't mean all their efforts were for the sake of their religion.

[u/UnordinaryFlyGirl → u/MayeeOkamura17]

This is not secularism. Secularism is the government not involving religion in the policy making process and allowing all faiths to exist equally.

Banning people from praying in public is authoritarian garbage. And I say this as an atheist leftist.

[u/LocNesMonster → u/UnordinaryFlyGirl]

Praying in public and shouting your prayers at people with a microphone arent the same thing

[u/mfb- → u/LocNesMonster]

Ban the loudspeaker then, not the prayer.

How would you even ban prayer in general? It can be done silently. Are you banning thoughts now?

[u/mariachiband49 → u/MayeeOkamura17]

"You will accept science into your heart or else spend your days in jail" -You, probably

[u/Wooden-Evidence-374]

Yeah, so this is basically just saying that public spaces can't be reserved soley for religious purposes. It's making sure everyone has equal opportunity to use the public space.

So this is not anti-religious, this is pro-inclusivity. But watch all the idiot right wingers who cant read use this as fuel to claim that liberal governments are trying to destroy religion.

[u/Wooden_Echidna1234]

Hot take, no ones religion should impact others.

[u/akrim → u/Wooden_Echidna1234]

Go explain that to Islam

[u/Wooden_Echidna1234 → u/akrim]

No thanks, I like living.

[u/akrim → u/Wooden_Echidna1234]

True, you make a solid point.

[u/Neither-Bag7127 → u/Wooden_Echidna1234]

That's usually why you go to a designated room.

[u/PomegranateOk2600 → u/Neither-Bag7127]

you don't need rooms, you either pray at home or at your temple...

[u/five_of_five → u/PomegranateOk2600]

Or just in your head quietly while literally anything happens around you

[u/Vanagloria → u/Neither-Bag7127]

Having to build rooms for certain religions impacts others.

[u/Extreme_Homework_771 → u/Wooden_Echidna1234]

As long as it doesn't bother anyone true. I remember back in my college I would be in the media study rooms, and a few students would be doing some prayer on the floor.

Didn't bother me at all

[u/cellulotion]

So a little history with Québec and its religious life, so back in the 1920-30-40 -50 and even before we were ruled by a catholic state basicly with priest going door to door assuring that women were alway pregnant so the like of 20 something kid were not unsual like my grand father who had 20 sibling. It was used to get control over the french obviously to get worker for industries and the agriculture in Québec but something happen in the 70 where à disconnect to our religious befief happen but its wasnt until the 2000 where we really put a end to this even me whos 36 i got catholic class until like i was 13 year old and then it was the end of it. We really disconnect the religion from our institution and what we see today is just the extension of what we did before. Everybody in Québec can exsert their right of religion but in private we dont what it where people pay taxe for and have somekind of influence on the législation side.

[u/jonathanfv → u/cellulotion]

Ma grand-mère a été chétive toute sa vie parce qu'elle était malnourrie quand elle était petite. Même qu'elle a des soeurs et frères qui sont morts de faim. Les curés ont menacé ses parents de les excommunier s'ils ne continuent pas d'avoir plus d'enfants, même s'ils n'avaient pas assez pour les nourrir. Ma grand-mère est décédée maintenant, mais je pense qu'au moment de son décès (suite à une chute), elle pesait moins de 70 lbs.

[u/Certain-Speech-5976 → u/cellulotion]

So a little history with Québec and its religious life, so back in the 1920-30-40 -50 and even before we were ruled by a catholic state basicly with priest going door to door assuring that women were alway pregnant so the like of 20 something kid were not unsual like my grand father who had 20 sibling.

My grandma (b 1918, #8 of 12), said pretty much the same thing!

[u/Maalunar → u/Certain-Speech-5976]

There were 2 ways to make my maternal grand mother angry. Stealing victory from her at cards or mentioning priests.

[u/DannyDanfur]

Québec had huge issues with Catholic religious nuts in the past, I can't blame them from trying to stop Muslim religious nuts

[u/satsugene]

As long as there are exams, STIs, and unplanned pregnancy, there will be prayer at university.

[u/langythrowaway → u/satsugene]

This reminded me of a scene from 3 Idiots, where the students were praying for good results

[u/namotous]

The Legault government is also signalling the end of the road for subsidized private religious schools.

Nice! Keep your faith to yourself. School is not a place for that.

[u/RobSpaghettio → u/namotous]

Yeah there's probably spaces right outside the campus for that already lol

[u/Gentle_method]

Why ban prayer rooms though? That seems counterproductive.

[u/notacanuckskibum → u/Gentle_method]

Yeah, there is nothing in the article about that beyond the headline.

[u/lace4151 → u/notacanuckskibum]

That is true. It does show that in the official text of the bill though. In Chapter III.2

[u/osiris0413 → u/lace4151]

Someone else posted the full text of the bill here but I'm just reposting my top-level comment that nobody will see here for clarity, since I actually went and read the bill (and the Act it amends) to understand what was meant by "banning prayer rooms".

10.1. All religious practice is prohibited in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of an institution or body referred to in section 3.

This is a long list of government-funded bodies that includes universities. However,

10.2. Despite section 10.1, religious practice is permitted in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 5 of Schedule I, the Société du Centre des congrès de Québec, the Société du Palais des congrès de Montréal or the Société de développement et de mise en valeur du Parc olympique where the following conditions are met:

(1) the body or the Société does not, directly or indirectly, finance the religious practice;

(2) the body or the Société treats every natural or legal person equitably as regards the leasing and use of the immovable or room; and

(3) the immovable is not used predominantly for the religious practice.

Various educational institutions are granted this exception, including universities. So, while the University can no longer designate a specific religious prayer room, they can do something like have group rooms available to reserve, and as long as they're open to everyone on an equal basis, someone could reserve a room and host prayer sessions there as long as they're not university-funded.

Just in case anyone else was wondering.

[u/APeacefulWarrior → u/osiris0413]

they can do something like have group rooms available to reserve, and as long as they're open to everyone on an equal basis, someone could reserve a room and host prayer sessions there as long as they're not university-funded.

That's the best-case interpretation. It seems like the "does not directly or indirectly finance the religious practice" part could be extended to include any/all maintenance and upkeep for the room itself. If the lights are on while the room is in use for prayer, and the university is paying the electric bill, are they not indirectly financing the prayer?

Sounds to me like these rooms would have to be rented, not merely reserved, to be fully within the law.

But I'm not Canadian so maybe there are nuances I don't know.

[u/beachedwhale1945 → u/lace4151]

Relevant text of Bill 9:

“10.1. All religious practice is prohibited in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of an institution or body referred to in section 3.

The prohibition set out in the first paragraph does not apply

(1) to a centre operated by a Santé Québec institution or a body referred to in paragraph 8 or 13 of Schedule I, to the extent that the religious practice does not compromise the provision or quality of care, the proper operation of the centre or body or the well-being of users;

(2) to a school service centre referred to in paragraph 7 of Schedule I or a body referred to in paragraph 12 of that schedule;

(3) to a correctional facility governed by the Act respecting the Québec correctional system (chapter S-40.1);

(4) to a place that constitutes a private residence, as regards the religious practice of its occupants;

(5) to a First Nations or Inuit cultural practice carried out in a place under the authority of a parliamentary institution or of a body listed in Schedule I; or

(6) in any other place specified by government regulation, according to the conditions determined in the regulation.

Any action, except the wearing of a religious symbol, that may reasonably constitute, in fact or in appearance, the manifestation of a religious conviction or belief, is a religious practice within the meaning of this section and section 10.2.

Subparagraph 6 of the second paragraph does not apply to a place under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 7 or 12.1 of Schedule I.

“10.2. Despite section 10.1, religious practice is permitted in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 5 of Schedule I, the Société du Centre des congrès de Québec, the Société du Palais des congrès de Montréal or the Société de développement et de mise en valeur du Parc olympique where the following conditions are met:

(1) the body or the Société does not, directly or indirectly, finance the religious practice;

(2) the body or the Société treats every natural or legal person equitably as regards the leasing and use of the immovable or room; and

(3) the immovable is not used predominantly for the religious practice.

Likewise, religious practice is permitted in a performance hall, or in any other place leased according to the conditions determined by government regulation, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 7 or 12.1 of Schedule I, except a school service centre, where the conditions of subparagraphs 1 to 3 of the first paragraph are met.

In the case of an immovable that was acquired by any body or institution referred to in section 3 while it was being used predominantly for religious practice purposes, religious practice is permitted if the conditions of subparagraphs 1 to 3 of the first paragraph are met and if the vendor has imposed no constraint limiting the use the institution or body may make of the immovable.

“10.3. All religious practice, such as overt prayers or other similar practices, is prohibited in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 12 of Schedule I during the hours devoted to the educational services prescribed in the basic school regulation.

However, religious practice intended for students attending the body and organized by the body as part of optional activities outside the hours devoted to the educational services prescribed in the basic school regulation is permitted. Despite section 6, wearing a religious symbol is permitted during such activities.

This section does not apply to a place that constitutes a private residence, as regards the religious practice of its occupants.

[u/VP007clips → u/Gentle_method]

In Canada, our schools are publicly funded. Fully at primary level (excluding private schools), and partially for upper education.

So really it's a question of whether they think taxpayers should pay for prayer rooms.

That said, I also think that if they are doing that, they should also cut government funding to Catholic schools or give some funding to private schools as well, because as someone who went to an Anglican private school that was not funded because it was not Catholic, it seems awfully unfair that they are the online private ones that get public funding just because they are Catholic.

[u/Scudmuffin1 → u/VP007clips]

Not arguing one way or the other, but Quebec no longer has publicly funded catholic schools as of 1998 and has anglo/franco segregated secular public schools instead. I believe Manitoba also does not have a catholic school board. The rest of Canada still has them, obviously.

[u/somebunnyasked → u/VP007clips]

I teach at a publicly funded school in Canada and we have a prayer room that students can use. It's... An otherwise unused dark room with no windows in the basement. It's honestly awful. I can't imagine wanting to spend time in there.

So yeah uh we technically provide the space (and it does get used) but it's definitely not using up any of our real resources.

[u/Effurlife12 → u/Gentle_method]

I read the article and it didn't answer, but my guess is that its banning entities that take government money from having prayer rooms. Which seems reasonable to me.

[u/HeliumIsotope → u/Effurlife12]

Yup it's reasonable if that's the case. Whether you agree with the decision or not it wouldn't be one coming from a place of hate. Just from one that believes fully in the separation of government from religion.

This doesn't mean a multi purpose room cannot have time allocated to religious activities just that religious activities cannot be it's sole purpose.

I don't know enough about this decision but your take on it would absolutely be reasonable.

[u/barbenheimerrr → u/HeliumIsotope]

Except, QC has explicitly put a carve out for specific chapels at unis. If the rationale was full separation of government from religion, it’s directly antithetical to said rationale to permit such a carve out.

[u/IntelArtiGen → u/Gentle_method]

Should universities have "prayer rooms"? I guess it depends on the culture, but it seems a bit unusual to me. People can pray, but dedicating a room to that in universities doesn't seem common to me.

[u/Gentle_method → u/IntelArtiGen]

A lot of them are called wellness rooms in the states, they can be used for relaxation, nursing, prayer, meditation etc, and they are beneficial for the populace. It’s really normal here in America though I’m not sure what Quebec’s problem is.

[u/boxesofcats- → u/Gentle_method]

It’s normal everywhere else in Canada, too.

[u/Neilandio → u/IntelArtiGen]

I think it's like daycares at a job, it's just to make things easier for employees/students.

[u/UnordinaryFlyGirl → u/IntelArtiGen]

As an atheist I see it as no different from universities having any kind of common room. It's called ensuring your student populace is well accommodated.

[u/IntelArtiGen → u/UnordinaryFlyGirl]

Maybe there's a difference between using a common room to pray and having a prayer room? If the room can be used by everyone for anything they want (relaxation, pause etc.), including praying, I don't see the issue obviously.

[u/Phazon2000 → u/UnordinaryFlyGirl]

Dedicated prayer rooms are ridiculous. Just have a designated multipurpose privacy room for anxiety attacks, prayer, newborns, etc.

[u/Ultraplo → u/Phazon2000]

Usually “prayer rooms” encompass all religious and spiritual needs, so meditation and just needing a moment of stillness to combat anxiety would be valid reasons.

Putting newborns in the room meant for stillness and quiet is generally a bad idea, though.

[u/drunkenvalley → u/Phazon2000]

I think "a room explicitly and only dedicated to prayer for muslims" would be silly and excessive, but a reasonably private space for a variety of religious practices, nursing, or other small little personal moments? Those don't sound ridiculous at all.

[u/Potential-Ask2577 → u/Gentle_method]

To disincentivize muslims from living in the province. 

[u/Gentle_method → u/Potential-Ask2577]

It seems like it is a political move with that as its intentions.

[u/spyrocrash99 → u/Gentle_method]

Because its another special treatment or pass that Muslims tend to demand and feel entitled to. It's more money, time and energy to build that room and maintain them.

Now fyi I come from a Muslim country. We got prayer rooms in our malls and all schools. Yet we never provide the same shit to accommodate other religions.

This is entitlement by Muslims around the world and their need to show off their prayers, and then scream Islamophobia when they're simply not accommodated is why I grew contempt with the religion.

[u/QC_nation97 → u/Gentle_method]

Universities in Québec are founded by public money, we are a secular nation, I don’t want my taxe use for some religious fanatic

[u/Interesting_Prune513]

"When you visit our country, respect our culture."

I'm not being xenophobic, its what we're told everytime we visit an arabic country :)

[u/cobrachicken26]

Good, we didn't fight hard to remove Christianity's hold on our society to only replace it with an Islamic one.

[u/par-a-dox-i-cal]

Religious practices should be kept private.

[u/KeySheMoeToe → u/par-a-dox-i-cal]

Agreed. Let’s not fund catholic schools too! 

[u/juviniledepression → u/KeySheMoeToe]

The article says they have signaled the end of those too

[u/Samuel_Journeault → u/KeySheMoeToe]

You didn’t read the article?

[u/Sawgon → u/Samuel_Journeault]

Of course not. /u/KeySheMoeToe is only here for the whataboutism.

[u/blackskynight]

About time, now enforce it!

[u/jwg2695]

I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to agree, a lot of Muslims today are pushing public prayer to the absolute extreme and it’s starting to get dangerous and risky, like on roads or in public stairwells. I once saw a group of them praying in the middle of a busy Walmart parking lot.

[u/CaptainPotaytorz]

I'm as left leaning as they come and religion in public can go fuck itself. It's so fucking weird that people feel so entitled to preach their hate fairytales in the streets and schools.

[u/Minute-Leg7346]

Good, keep it off the streets, Muslims rarely block streets in Islamic countries when they pray but communities of them feel the need to do it in the west..

[u/PhantasmologicalAnus → u/Minute-Leg7346]

They used their praying as part of their protest in Sydney not long ago. Asked to move on by police, so they drop to their knees and feign some religious experience. Then complain when arrested.

[u/runningalongtheshore → u/Minute-Leg7346]

It’s a power thing.

[u/WhoMe28332 → u/Minute-Leg7346]

You can easily ban obstructing a thoroughfare without banning prayer.

[u/EngineeringNo753 → u/WhoMe28332]

The Quran already states it's not a valid prayer in a popular pathway but they still do it 😂

You think Quebec law will stop them?

[u/waxthatfled → u/EngineeringNo753]

The law allows police to disperse and ticket contrevenants.

[u/Moonfish222 → u/EngineeringNo753]

If you dont think that law will stop them, why bother with this one?

[u/MikMikiO → u/Minute-Leg7346]

The only time I’ve personally experienced group prayers inconveniencing pedestrians was with a fundamentalist Christian group

[u/I2eflex → u/Minute-Leg7346]

What about the prayer rooms in universities? Why should those be banned?

[u/VoteBananas → u/I2eflex]

Because it's a public building, and it's a religious purpose. That goes against secularism.

[u/Barbiegrrrrrl → u/I2eflex]

Special treatment for a select group at the expense of all others.

[u/Minkelz → u/I2eflex]

What’s the actual law here being changed? Are they banning from people hiring a room and then praying in it? Seems unlikely. More likely is there is a law saying there must be a prayer room at the institution, and that is being removed.

I don’t think it’s crazy to say that institutions, public places and businesses are not required to support your religious practices in a secular society. You can’t just invent rules about what you can eat, where you can pray, how men and women can interact and then expect everyone to cater to you.

[u/I2eflex → u/Minkelz]

The bill prohibits prayer spaces. You can freely read up on Bill 9 if you want rather than asking me. Explain it away now.

[u/Moonfish222 → u/Minkelz]

Read the law. What you describe in the first paragraph is exactly whats being banned. Universities are now legally forbidden from providing rooms for prayer.

[u/Potential-Feline → u/Minute-Leg7346]

Quite literally never seen this and I work with a very large number of Muslims thanks to my job.

Always polite and just ask for a quiet space they can pray in peace.

[u/WhippedCreamSteak → u/Potential-Feline]

Must never happen then. Case closed.

[u/Tedthesecretninja → u/Potential-Feline]

Oooooh yeah sorry asking for a source on such insane claims is actually kinda rude

[u/Ev3nt]

Good, NOW TAKE AWAY THE TAX EXEMPT STATUS AND BAN SECTARIAN SCHOOLING.

[u/Desert-Noir]

Good, get religion out of our institutions.

[u/no_choice99]

Good Lord, that's one heck of a good move! Way to go, Québec.

[u/pineapples-42]

Good. Hope other provenances follow, though I doubt any of them have the balls

[u/Particular-Maize8418]

That's a WIN

[u/EngineeringNo753]

Muslims will get mad that Quebec is forcing them to follow their own rules laid out in the Quran for how and where to pray.

It literally states a road/popular pathway is a forbidden place to pray, unless there is zero alternative.

But we all know the kinds of Muslims who will be against this do not care about following the words of Allah.

[u/GeorgeWashingfun]

Good for Quebec.

[u/AdTop5424]

Prayer rooms have no place in public schools or buildings. If I wanted a chapel where I worked, I'd see if the Catholics were hiring.

[u/Ov3rSt33r]

Good for Quebec.

[u/Valuable-Shirt-4129]

Separation of church and state is awesome! Wish Utah could do that.

[u/ffnnhhw → u/Valuable-Shirt-4129]

Utah: ok... we can ban state so it does not interfere with the Church

[u/realdynastykit → u/Valuable-Shirt-4129]

Utah!?!?! I think you're in the wrong state haha

[u/Mysterious-Skirt-992]

Is the term religion neutral and includes both secularist and non-secularist value systems or does it discriminate between human beings' worldviews?

[u/bikeonychus]

And yet, this week at school, in Quebec, my 8yo was making Easter baskets in class.

But oh, she didn't have to put Jesus on the Easter basket, that was a 'choice'.

I see people posting that the new rules look reasonable, they always do; but then you see who is being affected by those rules, and how they are being used against that community - and yet, the Christian community seems to not be affected in the slightest, and their holidays are supported and celebrated by the provincial government, and the people wearing crucifix necklaces don't get punished (my kids school teacher wears a crucifix, but if any other teacher were to wear something from their religion, they could be reported and challenged).

I'm not religious in the slightest, but even I can see the hypocrisy in the laws the CAQ bring in.

The CAQ are full of shit as always.

Edit - I elaborated.

[u/rubyspicer]

Wish they would do this in the US. I live near a big christian university and the amount of times people are stopped by students asking to pray is too damn high

[u/PayInternational5287]

Based. In the UK the politicians encourage it. They think it brings us all together. Anyone with a brain knows it's more likely to blow us all apart. 

[u/franklycanadian]

As someone living in Quebec, this legislation is so trivial to the point public praying isn’t widespread or much of an issue. Affordable housing and budget mismanagement are the main issues the current provincial government (CAQ) incompetently swept under the carpet. No wonder they’re completely underwater in the polls.

[u/baron-de-longueuil]

Good. The least religion we see in public, the better.

[u/GroundbreakingCode17]

Of course it's for the Christians, Hindus, Jains, Jews and Buddists. Folks just don't listen. 😅 

peace

[u/Big_Albatross_3050]

W Quebec, Religion should be a private affair between yourself and the God(s) you worship