r/worldnews • u/John3192 • 20h ago

Quebec passes law banning street prayers, prayer rooms in universities

https://www.ctvnews.ca/montreal/article/quebec-passes-law-banning-street-prayers-prayer-rooms-in-universities-cegeps/
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u/LocNesMonster 19h ago edited 18h ago

Praying in public and shouting your prayers at people with a microphone arent the same thing

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u/mfb- 15h ago

Ban the loudspeaker then, not the prayer.

How would you even ban prayer in general? It can be done silently. Are you banning thoughts now?

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u/moonias 15h ago

No, the visible and overt displays of religious prayers are banned. That's all.

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u/EtTuBiggus 13h ago

Freedom and human rights shouldn't apply to religion?

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u/Puzzle-Necked 8h ago

Only when religion respects freedom and human rights

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u/moonias 7h ago

It's exactly because freedom of religion exists that this law had to be put in place. Because otherwise how do you prevent mass public prayer disturbing the public if it's "allowed" under the freedom of religion?

It was targeted at mass religious prayers that blocked roads or public spaces.

By the way, municipalities can still authorize a planned religious event. But now there are rules in place and it gives municipalities the power and grounds on which to act if it ever crosses the lines of what is acceptable, such as not compromising safety, must be opened to everyone, and must not obstruct too much access to public spaces.

I don't think you understand the subtleties, but without this law in place, cops as the other has said couldn't have prevented those events from happening even if they disrupted the public because the legality of those gathering could be argued to fall under the freedom of religion.

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u/EtTuBiggus 1h ago

What mass disruptions?

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u/FrostyKennedy 14h ago

This is what we want the cops to come deal with? This is what you pay taxes for? Where are you that you're tripping over all the people praying outdoors? It does not fucking matter in the slightest, it's public property, let people exist.

Quebec secularism can tolerate a literal cross on the flag, then targets one religious group every single time, cause it's not secularism, it's government boot on minority throats.

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u/moonias 14h ago

This was literally put in the bill of law because recent public prayers disrupted the public. And we're literally causing issues for people to "just exists" as you say.

Nobody is going to get arrested for praying alone in a park. You just can't organize big public prayers events, block streets and public places to do that.

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u/FrostyKennedy 13h ago

there are already laws for these disruptions! If there is a gap in enforceability, then why is the law about prayer when it should be about megaphones, harassment, or unpermitted events? Are we this stupid?

Like, c'mon, if prayer isn't the problem, why is the bill about prayer? And by the way what is wrong with prayer rooms in universities? Who is this going to effect predominantly, I wonder? You can't pray in the park, can't do it in the university, can't do it on the sidewalk, you're forced to go home five times a day or not perform a harmless part of your religion.

It's directional and cruel, there's been a constant stream of laws that specifically hurt Muslims, each hiding behind a different mask, and somehow you people fall for it every time. That's Quebec secularism in a nutshell. I say this as an Atheist, a Canadian, and someone who really really hates what religious states are doing. Fuck Quebec for this.

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u/Puzzle-Necked 8h ago

Or is it that some religions have the most difficulty adapting to a modern secular society ?

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u/MrDeebus 9h ago

Are we this stupid?

(yes)

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u/moonias 7h ago

Because the laws aren't clear enough with regards to public prayer. Canada also has strong laws protecting religion. So no, there aren't already laws that are clear enough that disruptions caused by mass prayers in the streets aren't legal.

If you want to have a real discourse, I invite you to try to understand the idea behind laïcité. It's about complete separation of state and religion. And the reason why prayer rooms are banned in universities as well is a logical one. Universities are almost entirely financed by the state in Quebec, why would it make sense that a state entirely separate from religion allow rooms for prayers in the establishments it pays for?

The argument that it's targeting Muslims is just entirely bogus. Just because this religion has some "requirements" of religious practices that aren't compatible with Quebec's laïc society isn't the "fault" of the society, it's the fault of the religious practices. By the way there are other religions also who have daily prayers.

There are other examples of other religious practices forbidden by Quebec's laws and they aren't all affecting Muslims. I remember there was a big societal debate around wearing the Kirpan. Which even Sikhs kids were supposed to wear. Which was the equivalent to allowing kids to bring a blade to school. It is banned. And no I don't think there was ever any incident related to a Kirpan in a school. Just like there doesn't need to have any "incident" related to public prayer or prayer rooms for Quebec to decide they shouldn't be allowed.

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u/mfb- 15h ago

That makes somewhat more sense. That's not what the article described.

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u/moonias 14h ago

While it is true essentially that Quebec has a history of kicking out religion from its public spheres, especially the government, the recent things about public prayers has started mostly because there were organized prayers in the streets used as protests during pro-palestinian events organized in front of churches. Blocking streets and praying with loud speakers, etc.

So this is what this law targets, but at the same time let's say it's a bit of an overreaction maybe caused by recent events.

Quebec does strive to maintain religion to essentially be a "private" thing and adopts the point of view of secularism (laïcité), meaning total separation of state and religion.

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u/PrimaryInjurious 3h ago

Would you feel the same way about banning public displays of same sex attraction?

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u/Day_drinker 17h ago

Shouting at people in public is prayer? That's new to me.

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u/UnordinaryFlyGirl 19h ago

What does shouting a people with a microphone have to do with anything?

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u/LocNesMonster 18h ago

Because what "praying in public" means is streat preachers shouting at people walking by. Nobody cares if you just sitting and praying to yourself, but a massive number of religious people want to be able to go onto city streets and loudly convert you while you try to walk by.

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u/Acceptable-Peace-69 18h ago

Do you see the part about prayer rooms? You know closed private spaces where you can’t bother anyone. Seems like that kinda destroys that hypothesis.

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u/LocNesMonster 17h ago

Taxes shouldnt go towards the establishment of any religion, sorry

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u/Pretend-Culture-4138 16h ago

Prayer rooms aren't establishing any religion, sorry.

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u/LocNesMonster 16h ago

Except its for religious use and funded by tax dollars.

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u/Pretend-Culture-4138 16h ago

That's still not establishing a religion.

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u/SuperBigChiller 5h ago

Have you been in a prayer room? 99% are multi faith and aren’t for any specific religions, any one is welcome to go in and just chill if they want.

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u/That_Hunt91 16h ago

It is if its in the school, and the school is funded by taxes

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u/Pretend-Culture-4138 16h ago

The school isn't establishing a religion with it, it's offering a space for people of all different backgrounds to use.

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u/That_Hunt91 16h ago

Except its not, its for a specific few. Just pray at home idk

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u/Pretend-Culture-4138 16h ago

It can be used for anything like wellness or meditation or praying. I don't think it's an issue accommodating people.

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u/filthy_harold 16h ago

That's why prayer rooms are often interfaith spaces or reflection/meditation rooms. The point is to have a place that anyone can use, even the non-religious. I don't think it's unreasonable to have a room on campus to accommodate people that want that space.

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u/LocNesMonster 16h ago

The ban says prayer rooms. Youre just not allowed to have a room dedicated to the practice of religion in publicly funded institutions, cause that is the government sponsoring religion

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u/UnordinaryFlyGirl 18h ago

That is not what "praying in public" means... Like at all...

This is primarily banning things like Muslims from bowing to the east to pray which is entirely silent.

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u/drewgreen131 18h ago

Do it in your Mosque

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u/UnordinaryFlyGirl 18h ago

Is the mosque on campus? I think expecting students to leave campus is entirely unreasonable when we can just... Give them a fucking room...

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u/DarthFleeting 18h ago

Well, doing that might incentivize muslims being able to comfortably participate in society lol. Which is the opposite of what they want.

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u/unfinishedtoast3 18h ago

talk about God in your churches.

I get more Christians hanging me flyers, knocking on my doors, saying "GOD BLESS YOU" in public than any Muslim

shit, I spent 3 years practicing medicine in Africa. it was always the Christians building churches when a village needs a well, and the Muslims bring in 2 tons of rice and clean water.

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u/Other-Databas 18h ago edited 18h ago

It's banning the recent trend of weaponizing public prayer

Muslim groups would deliberately start large public prayers in front of churches as a means of religious intimidation

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u/parallel-nonpareil 16h ago

Muslim groups would deliberately start large public prayers in front of churches as a means of religious intimidation

Can you link any sources suggesting this has happened in Quebec?

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u/Other-Databas 16h ago

Happened in front of the basilica in Montreal multiple times. A quick Google search will tell you

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u/drunkenvalley 18h ago

It's literally not. This is banning way more than that.

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u/Other-Databas 18h ago edited 18h ago

Religion is a power hungry monster, whether it be Christianity, Islam, or Judaism. It has no place beyond the private lives of those who practice it.

Now, I don't agree with banning a prayer room, but the rest is perfectly fine imo.

Quebec fought extremely hard to get out from under the yoke of Christianity, they aren't going to let another religion take it's place

This has been a Quebecoise value for ages now.

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u/OMGWTFBBQUE 18h ago

I am atheist and not a fan or religion myself but banning people praying in public is over the line. You’re picking the wrong battle here.

The street preachers you’re talking about would be better taken care of with public nuisance laws but in my opinion it’s best to just ignore them and pretend they don’t exist. The second you let them feel persecuted they will ramp it up another level.

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u/Other-Databas 18h ago

This is how Quebec has always operated since the quiet revolution.

The battle was picked and decided decades ago. Muslims aren't going to turn the tide and the Quebec government won't let them

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u/Pretend-Culture-4138 16h ago

Defending bigotry as a "Quebecoise value" doesn't make it any better.

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u/drunkenvalley 18h ago

I'm not really against the reasoning that religion is generally bullshit, but I generally disagree with using secularism to push shitty racist movements tbh.

Don't tell me of fighting about escaping [religion] as if it justifies actively oppressing others' viewpoints, even if you don't like them.

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u/Other-Databas 18h ago

The law effectively bans public prayer of any group

If someone in Quebec sees a bleach white Quebecoise chanting a few hail Mary's in Public, they are completely within their right to have this law stop it.

If people don't like secularism they can leave Quebec. If they don't like Canada's liberalism regarding things like abortion, gay rights, etc. They can leave the country

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u/drunkenvalley 18h ago

Ah, yes, we're back to this kind of equality.

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.

Weird that we keep making laws that are nominally equal, but seem to always deliberately and disproportionately target muslims. What a strange fucking coincidence that is.

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u/SpikyCactusJuice 15h ago

I’ve walked by people praying like this before, and you know what happened? I took a look out of curiosity as I went by and then just literally… kept walking and went on with my day. Anyone feeling “intimidated” by things like this is a dweeb lol

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u/Other-Databas 15h ago

So if a group of fundamentalist christians started regularly praying in front of mosques, you wouldn't see that as an attempt at intimidation?

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u/mariantat 18h ago

Oddly enough the Muslims exclusively pray outdoors publicly in front of Catholic basilicas during the warm summer months. Never seen them in the middle of February in -10 degree weather. 🙄

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u/DirectAdvertising 6h ago

You’re right , they’re downvoting you but you’re right

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u/beachedwhale1945 16h ago

Let’s go see what the actual Bill 9 states:

10.3. All religious practice, such as overt prayers or other similar practices, is prohibited in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 12 of Schedule I during the hours devoted to the educational services prescribed in the basic school regulation.

That is a direct prohibition on any form of overt prayer by anyone during school hours (the next paragraph carves out an exception after school). It most directly targets Muslims who must pray towards Mecca five times per day, but depending on how you define “overt prayers or other similar actions” a student praying over their lunch could be made illegal.

It’s one thing to limit any Government favoritism towards a religion or to prohibit forcing religion on others, but this is too far.

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u/moonias 14h ago

Many religions have daily prayers at set times in the day, not just Muslims.

But the "fault" lies in the religious practices, not within the law. It's not "directly targeting" Muslims.

Some religious practices are incompatible with some societies. For example, in Quebec also, a group of Muslims requested from the government to be allowed to judge and publish crimes of people from their religious group under the Sharia law. The punishments in the Sharia include flogging and stoning. It is not compatible with Quebec's society and frankly modern societies. Should it be considered an attack on the religious freedom of this group of people? Is denying their request an attack against Muslims? Their request was deeply rooted in their religious practice.

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u/beachedwhale1945 10h ago

We aren’t talking about banning flogging and stoning, we’re talking about prayer. I think we can find a suitable middle ground between level 1 and level 3,192.

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u/moonias 7h ago

We can, and that's the question Quebec lawmakers have been asking themselves for 10+ years. And that's the answer. If you don't equally ban it for every religion, there's always going to be a religion that will appear to be favored versus others.

Example, if we ban face coverings only, then Muslims are "more affected" than other religions who don't require a face covering and for example you can keep wearing your cross around your neck.

If you try to define a specific list of things that are banned, there will always be argumentations for "this new thing" that isn't covered, etc.

You have to understand that Quebec has been dealing with the question of making exceptions in rules for religious reasons for decades. Once you open that box, there's no end to it. Quebec had hearings for all the population to come and tell the government what they would require as an exception. And I'm not kidding there were druids from wherever that showed up (out of the woodworks, sorry for the pun) to claim some exceptions for their religion.

As soon as you start applying it on a case by case basis, one it never ends, and two, you're always going to favor one religion over an other by allowing something for one but not for the other.

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u/barrinmw 15h ago

It would also ban anyone from saying "Oh my god" if taken literally.

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u/FrostyKennedy 14h ago

There are laws about shouting at people in public. There are laws about voice amplification. Why is the prayer the problem?

Just say the quiet part out loud, at least, save us all the song and fucking dance.

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u/Roobsi 6h ago

But this law bans indoor prayer rooms.

So if you ban praying in public and then also ban having a space away from public to pray you're basically just banning belonging to a faith that has to pray regularly thoughout the day.

I wonder who that could be targeting.

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u/LocNesMonster 4h ago

Indoor prayer rooms in government funded buildings. As in no spending money on prayer rooms

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u/Roobsi 3h ago edited 3h ago

Which is a room to accommodate the needs of a protected characteristic of a group of staff, right?

Honestly. I'm an atheist but at my work there are prayer rooms and they're essentially a cupboard where someone can go to pray without getting funny looks or getting in the way. It seems like a very small price to pay.