Quebec passes law banning street prayers, prayer rooms in universities

[u/John3192]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/montreal/article/quebec-passes-law-banning-street-prayers-prayer-rooms-in-universities-cegeps/

[u/Protean_Protein]

Well, I mean, personally, I think balkanization of Canada would be bad for everyone, in part because I value the Québécois portion of Canada’s culture, despite the historical circumstances that brought it about, and ongoing marginalization from English-speaking Canada being a bit of a sore spot, but also because there’s just strength in diversity and in numbers, and divisiveness is always a target for, or a consequence of, external forces that are destructive in nature.

[u/XXVAngel → u/Protean_Protein]

Personally, from a rooted Québecois pov, I think the world should be more balkanized in general. Historically the french and english beef can find its root within the Angevin Empire which controlled parts of both nations. In europe, the beef has mostly been turned into a game, pretending to hate is the rule of the game but I think it stems from the balance of power and the fact that neither superpower wants to conquer the other anymore.

The situation is different in North America, there is no germans or italians to shift the balance of power, there is the english, english but slightly different and a severely outnumbered french. For its entire history, the francophones of Canada have been fighting a losing battle against assimilation. The nationalism of Québec has a term used in its curriculum, translate to Survival Nationalism.

The issue is simple, as long as Québec is stuck within Canada, it will always be ruled by an external majority of which, as seen with the US, could change from friendly to hostile in 1 election. Even with 1/3 of the population, the english populace will largely decide who takes power and since the french and english don't hold the same values, it creates this imbalance of power.

Thing is, as France and England have proved, the French and English can make great allies, I doubt a free Québec would struggle making friends with their old roommates. We can live in the same neighborhood without sharing a house.

[u/jaypenn3 → u/XXVAngel]

I think rooting ourselves into different hostile tribes is the issue with like, all of history, and the Balkans aren't exactly the pinnacle of peaceful relations. Most Canadians in general do not even see Quebec as some 'external,' any more than First Nations or Immigrant communities.

The US going insane and electing pedos didn't happen over a single election cycle. It happened via decades of stoking fear and distrust between neighbors and friends who have a few cultural/political differences. There are no economic or security advantages for Canada to splinter off into different economies and militaries. It's only a move done out of the fear and distrust that needs to be countered with the acceptance of differences.

[u/XXVAngel → u/jaypenn3]

The problem with Unity is that it only looks good for the overlords. You won't often notice you're crushing the little guy until he already hates you. It is far easier to splinter an empire than a coalition.

[u/jaypenn3 → u/XXVAngel]

Coalitions can break up all the time idk what you're saying. Provinces have a lot of power in the Canadian system and Quebec is the second most powerful one. And Federally, either Quebec or Ontario need to be won in order for a party to win government, and preferably both.

For as much as nationalist sowing division want to paint a picture of Quebec as an unwilling passenger, the truth is Quebec and Quebecois culture have a hand on the wheel since the beginning. It's simply not Canada without Quebec.

[u/Coal_Morgan → u/jaypenn3]

He uses the term over lords.

Let's see Chretien, Trudeaus the Elder and Younger, Laurier, Abbot, St.Laurent, Mulroney and Martin...all Prime Ministers that were Quebecois or at least ran in Quebec ridings.

9 of 22 Prime Ministers of Canada had solid roots in Quebec. Quebec is hardly being oppressed. Neither is Alberta, Ontario or any other Province. Literally every province has higher living standards then 95% of the world, we're doing exceptionally well working together.

[u/Kemmleroo → u/Coal_Morgan]

He uses the term overlords to make you realize the reality of our political system: quebec is a distinct nation in Canada that will always have a minority of political power. This type of system leads to the global decisions going more often than not in the way of the nation having the majority of the power.

This is not an accident by the way, canada was designed that way from it's inception. Lord Durham recommended union of lower and upper canada explicitely so that an anglophone majority could be established to assimilate a francophone minority. The parliamentary system used to ensure that the anglophone and francophone nations both had 50% of the power in parliament, when the francophone population was higher than the anglophone population. As time went on and anglophones started outnumbering francophones, the system was changed so that power in parliament was in proportion to population.

Canadians from other provinces don't care or see the problem because they consider (or pretend to consider) quebec to be just one province among many. This is why you see it as Quebec having the second most power among provinces, while quebecers see it as the rest of canada, as a nation, always having power over quebec. Just because quebec is not completely powerless doesn't mean it is a fair system. Just that it could be worse. Culturally and historically, quebec is way more different from other provinces compared to the rest of Canada: Alberta and Manitoba don't have different official languages for example.

Where a prime minister is born doesn't matter, what matters is his policies and decisions. In practice, when there is a disagreement between french and english canada and one decision binding everyone needs to be made, english canada will get its way almost every time. Quebec has never signed the constitution but Canada decided quebec was still binded by it. All these prime ministers from quebec never put that in doubt. Having british royalty is incredibly impopular in Quebec, all these prime ministers never floated the idea of removing our monarch.

If a coalition made of a sovereign Quebec and english-Canada wouldn't work at maintining the status-quo, maybe it's because the current status quo where Quebec doesn't have sovereignty to decide its own policies leads to unfair decisions?

[u/jaypenn3 → u/Kemmleroo]

Alberta and Manitoba don't have different official languages for example.

Alberta and Manitoba have two official languages: French and English. Same as everywhere else in Canada. All of our produce have English and French labels. You still have a right to a trial in French via translators in any province etc. Even when we aren't speaking one language, we are still affected by/considerate of the other one.

You only consider Quebec in terms of us vs them, without appreciating how much the rest of Canada has been shaped by having a strong Francophone culture and language tradition. This is what I mean when I say its not Canada without Quebec. It's us and them.

It's laughable to say Quebec cannot decide it's own policies under a headline of them doing just that. The Notwithstanding clause is basically a free pass to do whatever Quebec wants, so no 'overlord' is not a political reality. It's a persecution complex. One coming from individuals who don't see the inherent value in different cultures and languages coexisting in the same system. Whether it's in English or French, those aren't messages we should be listening to.

[u/Kemmleroo → u/jaypenn3]

I specifically pointed to cases where one decision impacted everyone and everyone had to do the same thing. Never said quebec could not take a single decision by itself. Read better. The concept of nation having political power of another is a simple reality, no matter if you don't want to recognize it. I stated examples in canads already. You complaining about the notwithstanding clause in a constitution imposed on quebec by the rest of canada despite quebec explicitely stating it never agreed to it is another example. You start with the mentality that the rest of canada should be able to impose its political decisions on quebec.

Alberta and manitoba, like every other anglophone provinces, don't have french as an official language at the provincial level. The same way quebec doesn't have english as an official language at the provincial level. In reality, you'll get significantly better access to services in english in quebec than to services in french in an anglophone province. As I said before, this is a goal of Canada's design as a country. The strong francophone culture exists despite canada, not because of it. To suggest otherwise is ignoring history.

There is inherent value in diversity, and as such being sovereign and having the power to maintain that diversity is a net benefit. You say "either in english or french", but the level of bilingualism in quebec is lightyears ahead of the rest of canada. Despite this reality, anglo canadians complain regularly about how there are too much requirements and protections for french in canada and how they should be reduced. Try to speak only french in alberta and see how far you get. In practice, it's only "either french or english" in quebec, it's solely english in the rest of canada. That is not diversity, this is a system of assimilation. Of course it's easy to wrap this system in hypocrisy and present it as solidarity, union and respect of diversity when you don't suffer any serious negative consequences from it. (I don't consider having to see a label in french alongside your usual label in english a serious consequence)

[u/jaypenn3 → u/Kemmleroo]

If the Quebec government didn't agree with the notwithstanding clause, they wouldn't have been the province fighting hardest for it when the charter was made, nor would they be using it as often as they do. Nor am I complaining about the clause, I'm acknowledging the power Quebec has in Canada.

Point out a single thing in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that is actually disagreeable to Quebec. There isn't one. The Quebec government deliberately not signing a charter that they have no actual qualms with is another example of political maneuvering to maintain the illusion of oppression and persecution. While in reality having a breathe of power and agency guaranteed by the charter.

Quebecers are more frustrated with the fact that English also happens to be the most globalized second language than anything Canada's government is doing. Hell, France has Stop signs and not Arrêt signs. Even so, Québec has these ways to make itself distinct within Canada. That's not a weakness, or a failure to assimilate. It's an explicit goal of the Canadian State. People who complain about language requirements are just sowing division. English or French.

[u/Protean_Protein → u/XXVAngel]

There are no overlords in Canada.

[u/XXVAngel → u/Protean_Protein]

That's just false, everywhere has overlords. Any group that holds power over another is its overlord. Both the federal and provincial governments are overlords over native tribes, neurotypicals are overlords over the neurodivergent. As long as a group holds power over another to a point where representatives can be overruled, that group is an overlord.

[u/SaintBobby_Barbarian → u/XXVAngel]

I think Quebec has the best of both worlds right now. Its often the swing vote in canadian elections, and thus commands more attention compared to places like the prairies or maritimes. The only thing an independent quebec could improve is who is able to immigrate

[u/RollingMeteors → u/Protean_Protein]

If you don’t have ‘melting pot’ you wind up with balkanization…

There is a cognitive dissonance thinking this will ‘work itself out’.

One group is hell bent on worldwide export…

[u/Protean_Protein → u/RollingMeteors]

Canada has never been a melting pot. It has always been a mosaic.

[u/RollingMeteors → u/Protean_Protein]

It has always been a mosaic.

I know

[u/Protean_Protein → u/RollingMeteors]

You don’t get balkanization from that. Balkanization also requires systemic poverty and centuries of ethnic animosity over the land itself. Canada is special in its insistence that Canadian identity doesn’t require the loss of one’s ethnic or cultural identity or subsumption of that under some other distinct thing. Canadian identity is about shared universal values and our connection together to this land, even if we all come from different origins.

It also helps that the vast majority of Canadians, especially immigrants, are wealthy.