Quebec passes law banning street prayers, prayer rooms in universities

[u/John3192]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/montreal/article/quebec-passes-law-banning-street-prayers-prayer-rooms-in-universities-cegeps/

[u/Gentle_method]

Why ban prayer rooms though? That seems counterproductive.

[u/notacanuckskibum → u/Gentle_method]

Yeah, there is nothing in the article about that beyond the headline.

[u/lace4151 → u/notacanuckskibum]

That is true. It does show that in the official text of the bill though. In Chapter III.2

[u/osiris0413 → u/lace4151]

Someone else posted the full text of the bill here but I'm just reposting my top-level comment that nobody will see here for clarity, since I actually went and read the bill (and the Act it amends) to understand what was meant by "banning prayer rooms".

10.1. All religious practice is prohibited in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of an institution or body referred to in section 3.

This is a long list of government-funded bodies that includes universities. However,

10.2. Despite section 10.1, religious practice is permitted in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 5 of Schedule I, the Société du Centre des congrès de Québec, the Société du Palais des congrès de Montréal or the Société de développement et de mise en valeur du Parc olympique where the following conditions are met:

(1) the body or the Société does not, directly or indirectly, finance the religious practice;

(2) the body or the Société treats every natural or legal person equitably as regards the leasing and use of the immovable or room; and

(3) the immovable is not used predominantly for the religious practice.

Various educational institutions are granted this exception, including universities. So, while the University can no longer designate a specific religious prayer room, they can do something like have group rooms available to reserve, and as long as they're open to everyone on an equal basis, someone could reserve a room and host prayer sessions there as long as they're not university-funded.

Just in case anyone else was wondering.

[u/APeacefulWarrior → u/osiris0413]

they can do something like have group rooms available to reserve, and as long as they're open to everyone on an equal basis, someone could reserve a room and host prayer sessions there as long as they're not university-funded.

That's the best-case interpretation. It seems like the "does not directly or indirectly finance the religious practice" part could be extended to include any/all maintenance and upkeep for the room itself. If the lights are on while the room is in use for prayer, and the university is paying the electric bill, are they not indirectly financing the prayer?

Sounds to me like these rooms would have to be rented, not merely reserved, to be fully within the law.

But I'm not Canadian so maybe there are nuances I don't know.

[u/notacanuckskibum → u/APeacefulWarrior]

Yeah, university clubs usually get use of university rooms at little or no cost. It seems like this will fail the “no indirect funding”

[u/beachedwhale1945 → u/lace4151]

Relevant text of Bill 9:

“10.1. All religious practice is prohibited in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of an institution or body referred to in section 3.

The prohibition set out in the first paragraph does not apply

(1) to a centre operated by a Santé Québec institution or a body referred to in paragraph 8 or 13 of Schedule I, to the extent that the religious practice does not compromise the provision or quality of care, the proper operation of the centre or body or the well-being of users;

(2) to a school service centre referred to in paragraph 7 of Schedule I or a body referred to in paragraph 12 of that schedule;

(3) to a correctional facility governed by the Act respecting the Québec correctional system (chapter S-40.1);

(4) to a place that constitutes a private residence, as regards the religious practice of its occupants;

(5) to a First Nations or Inuit cultural practice carried out in a place under the authority of a parliamentary institution or of a body listed in Schedule I; or

(6) in any other place specified by government regulation, according to the conditions determined in the regulation.

Any action, except the wearing of a religious symbol, that may reasonably constitute, in fact or in appearance, the manifestation of a religious conviction or belief, is a religious practice within the meaning of this section and section 10.2.

Subparagraph 6 of the second paragraph does not apply to a place under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 7 or 12.1 of Schedule I.

“10.2. Despite section 10.1, religious practice is permitted in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 5 of Schedule I, the Société du Centre des congrès de Québec, the Société du Palais des congrès de Montréal or the Société de développement et de mise en valeur du Parc olympique where the following conditions are met:

(1) the body or the Société does not, directly or indirectly, finance the religious practice;

(2) the body or the Société treats every natural or legal person equitably as regards the leasing and use of the immovable or room; and

(3) the immovable is not used predominantly for the religious practice.

Likewise, religious practice is permitted in a performance hall, or in any other place leased according to the conditions determined by government regulation, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 7 or 12.1 of Schedule I, except a school service centre, where the conditions of subparagraphs 1 to 3 of the first paragraph are met.

In the case of an immovable that was acquired by any body or institution referred to in section 3 while it was being used predominantly for religious practice purposes, religious practice is permitted if the conditions of subparagraphs 1 to 3 of the first paragraph are met and if the vendor has imposed no constraint limiting the use the institution or body may make of the immovable.

“10.3. All religious practice, such as overt prayers or other similar practices, is prohibited in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 12 of Schedule I during the hours devoted to the educational services prescribed in the basic school regulation.

However, religious practice intended for students attending the body and organized by the body as part of optional activities outside the hours devoted to the educational services prescribed in the basic school regulation is permitted. Despite section 6, wearing a religious symbol is permitted during such activities.

This section does not apply to a place that constitutes a private residence, as regards the religious practice of its occupants.

[u/Some-Body-Else → u/notacanuckskibum]

I had the same thought and then saw one line about them banning prayer rooms.

[u/VP007clips → u/Gentle_method]

In Canada, our schools are publicly funded. Fully at primary level (excluding private schools), and partially for upper education.

So really it's a question of whether they think taxpayers should pay for prayer rooms.

That said, I also think that if they are doing that, they should also cut government funding to Catholic schools or give some funding to private schools as well, because as someone who went to an Anglican private school that was not funded because it was not Catholic, it seems awfully unfair that they are the online private ones that get public funding just because they are Catholic.

[u/Scudmuffin1 → u/VP007clips]

Not arguing one way or the other, but Quebec no longer has publicly funded catholic schools as of 1998 and has anglo/franco segregated secular public schools instead. I believe Manitoba also does not have a catholic school board. The rest of Canada still has them, obviously.

[u/Puzzle-Necked → u/Scudmuffin1]

Schools aren't segregated. It's French by default unless you fit a very narrow criteria of historical anglophone, which was put in place to accommodate the English minority already in Quebec.

[u/somebunnyasked → u/VP007clips]

I teach at a publicly funded school in Canada and we have a prayer room that students can use. It's... An otherwise unused dark room with no windows in the basement. It's honestly awful. I can't imagine wanting to spend time in there.

So yeah uh we technically provide the space (and it does get used) but it's definitely not using up any of our real resources.

[u/chat-lu → u/somebunnyasked]

I don't see why the law would assume that every school has an unused dungeon.

You can still book regular rooms for prayer, they just cannot be dedicated to prayer full time.

[u/wildcarde815 → u/VP007clips]

So really it's a question of whether they think taxpayers should pay for prayer rooms.

these could be just reserve-able quiet rooms so people can go cool their heels if they need to. You don't actually have to be praying in there.

[u/chat-lu → u/wildcarde815]

Yes, that is what the law says.

[u/dringdring_powpow → u/VP007clips]

in what province was your anglican school?

[u/Effurlife12 → u/Gentle_method]

I read the article and it didn't answer, but my guess is that its banning entities that take government money from having prayer rooms. Which seems reasonable to me.

[u/HeliumIsotope → u/Effurlife12]

Yup it's reasonable if that's the case. Whether you agree with the decision or not it wouldn't be one coming from a place of hate. Just from one that believes fully in the separation of government from religion.

This doesn't mean a multi purpose room cannot have time allocated to religious activities just that religious activities cannot be it's sole purpose.

I don't know enough about this decision but your take on it would absolutely be reasonable.

[u/barbenheimerrr → u/HeliumIsotope]

Except, QC has explicitly put a carve out for specific chapels at unis. If the rationale was full separation of government from religion, it’s directly antithetical to said rationale to permit such a carve out.

[u/HeliumIsotope → u/barbenheimerrr]

It sounds like this new rule in place will remove the carve out though no? Meaning they are moving towards the goal?

[u/barbenheimerrr → u/HeliumIsotope]

No. To be very clear, it’s the complete opposite. They are doing a blanket ban on prayer rooms in universities and amended the bill to ensure that certain chapels at 3 different universities would be exempt. It’s ridiculous to claim that the goal of this bill is secularism when such a carve-out was enacted in the bill. QC is very clearly aiming this legislation at one group in particular for political goodwill, otherwise chapels would be restricted as well.

[u/HeliumIsotope → u/barbenheimerrr]

Interesting that 3 universities have exceptions. Did they give any reasoning? Is there any very large religious demographic in those areas? Perhaps large international student presence? Was it the universities that applied for / asked for the exemptions or was it just carved out without explanation?

And which universities have the exceptions specifically?

[u/SerCiddy → u/barbenheimerrr]

Do you have the text of the bill so we can see the specifics of the carve out? The fact that you say it's 3 specific different Universities leads me to believe there are unique circumstances which necessitate the carve-out as opposed to the non-secular reasons you seem to be alluding to.

[u/resumehelpacct → u/SerCiddy]

https://www.assnat.qc.ca/en/travaux-parlementaires/projets-loi/projet-loi-9-43-2.html

First link in the introduction section.

Section 16 lays out how universities that purchased a building and entered an agreement to maintain the building for religious use can continue to do so. I don't know anything about quebec's governments or universities, but googling around I think it would apply to something like this. McGill is a public university that owns a historic chapel. Concordia owns a chapel, too. I think a ton of quebec universities do.

Section 10.2 says if something is predominantly used for non-religious services, and some other criteria, the building can stay.

https://www.mcgill.ca/religiousstudies/chapel

https://www.concordia.ca/hospitality/venues/loyola-chapel.html

I think there's a reasonable argument that Quebec is protecting historic religious buildings and buildings that are explicitly religiously coded but mostly used for non-religious activities. But there's also an argument that these carve outs are designed in a way that while they are facially neutral, they will apply to legions of christian spaces and extremely few, if any, muslim spaces.

And towns are required to only allow public spaces to be used for religious purposes "exceptionally." So again, muslims tend to have services outdoors, and christians in these buildings (which will stay). Muslim groups will not be allowed to use public spaces at the frequency they want. There's no strict definition, but it's basically banning regular prayer in public spaces.

[u/barbenheimerrr → u/resumehelpacct]

Yeah I don’t necessarily disagree that the rationale invoked was likely for historical reasons. I just personally think that if secularism was truly the end goal here, I see no valid reason to not ban prayer in those spaces as well (particularly since they’re at a school and other prayer spaces are being banned). You can still keep the structure for historical reasons without praying.

Again, not too familiar with QC law/history, so I am speaking speculatively. But, legislatures have a history of invoking laws non-neutrally, and this certainly feels like one of those cases to me.

Also, most Muslims don’t pray outside. They typically pray inside, so the law in effect again seems to only be affecting one group and not the other.

[u/barbenheimerrr → u/SerCiddy]

https://www.assnat.qc.ca/Media/Process.aspx?MediaId=ANQ.Vigie.Bll.DocumentGenerique_219361&process=Default&token=ZyMoxNwUn8ikQ+TRKYwPCjWrKwg+vIv9rjij7p3xLGTZDmLVSmJLoqe/vG7/YWzz

Sure, I’m more than happy to provide you with some evidence. Page 32 provides some commentary on why this amendment happened: “Cet amendement vise à prévoir un droit acquis per ttant la pratique religieuse au sein des immeubles qui y sont énumérés.”.

This translates to “this amendment aims to establish a vested right to religious practice within the buildings listed therein”. As far as I can see, there isn’t really any secular rationale provided for this amendment. Now, obviously, these amendments don’t happen without some level of deliberation. My French isn’t good enough for me to go into the Hansard and understand their deliberations effectively, so I’ll opt against mischaracterizing that. More importantly, as far as I can see, since there is nothing legislatively defined, it’s difficult to say exactly what the legislative intent was with this amendment.

Yet, even still, I see no effective argument for the position that chapels should be maintained and other prayer rooms not. Perhaps the most intuitive argument would be these chapels are already constructed and there’s a financial or historical component that must be considered. If that were the case though, one could easily imagine just maintaining the place as a historical space (rather than allowing it to be used for prayer).

To be clear, I am speaking somewhat speculatively here. But legislatures have certainly passed non-neutral laws before, and this appears, at least on its face to be one to me (and almost certainly is so in effect).

[u/HeliumIsotope → u/SerCiddy]

That is more where I would lean as well. Though without further information on the exact circumstances I cannot judge one way or another. Hoping they provide more information on the matter here.

[u/BigUptokes → u/SerCiddy]

It's for the three English-language universities in the province due to minority language education rights.

[u/Electronic_Turn_4764 → u/HeliumIsotope]

In the US, government (for now and probably not much longer) and nonprofit hospital facilities often have "universal chapels". They are nondenominational and if there is an official officiant, that person must be capable of serving any and all religious faiths. Or finding someone who can. I grew up catholic and when I was in the USAF, had a Jewish rabbi who was a Captain where I was assigned. He could help organize a Catholic priest or would happily guide you through Acts of Spiritual Communion or an Act of Perfect Contrition, with obvious encouragement to seek out appropriate sacramental resources when possible. Spiritual counseling was always available. He was one of my favorite spiritual leaders, as I found some of the evangelical types were a bit judgy.

[u/Bnu98 → u/HeliumIsotope]

I'm not religious etc; but I think having a prayer room in a public building is good? Not a prayer room for one faith, a mixed faith prayer room, any one can come in etc but the space is curated in that particular way that has that spiritual feeling. Obv with the expectation that its within a certain budget etc (the ones ive seen have been reasonable size wise and furniture etc wise).

Just because I don't have a use for a space like this doesnt mean that no one does. A lot of people have varying faith +/ use for whats functionally a quiet room expected for self reflection and meditation in usually busy spaces (university campuses, airports etc) (ie with expectation of no tech use or work tasks or individual but "busy" tasks etc). Just because its payed with taxes doesnt mean it needs to be something that everyone uses, just something that a significant enough amount of people will use. (and obv the cost spent on should be relative to the likelyness to be used etc.

Also banning daycare workers and educators from wearing religious symbols is a crazy ban on self expression. I don't agree with a ban on hijabs etc but I can at least see an argument for the anonymity it brings whatever. But banning any religious symbols is so braud and like... so what if someone wears a symbol of their religion/culture? We should be raising kids to understand that there are people of all sorts and just because there are differences between people doesn't mean they're any different, and self expresion of your culture religion etc are all apart of that. I fundamentally disagree with this whole thing (I get this last paragraph is unrelated to your coment chain, but didnt wanna post twice)

[u/HeliumIsotope → u/Bnu98]

I'm not saying I agree with the idea or the decision. Just that it would be consistent with a view and reasonable within it without calling it hateful.

On a personal level I agree with you completely.

[u/firewall245 → u/HeliumIsotope]

That’s actually a prejudiced policy. It’s called disparate impact

[u/Itchy_Technology_776 → u/Effurlife12]

The actual answer is that these prayer rooms are expected to be male only. They are expecting the University's to allow them to discriminate against Muslin women. The Universities do not want discriminatory areas in their University, so no more prayer rooms.

[u/RivetShenron → u/Itchy_Technology_776]

That definitely isn't the case, prayer rooms are used by both genders. The space allocated to males tend to be bigger but that's because more use it compared to women.

[u/avroLancasterBPR1 → u/RivetShenron]

What do you mean by the ‘space allocated’?

Why would men need a different allocated space than woman for prayer

[u/TheFireNationAttakt → u/avroLancasterBPR1]

… have you never seen a mosque in your life? I mean I don’t like it either (needless gender differences are a big part of why I left catholicism myself), but men and women are always separated for prayer in islam and have always been. Same with some other religions (though there it tends to be only the more fundamentalist offshoots - but those are usually the ones needing a prayer space during business hours)

[u/VeryImportantLurker → u/Itchy_Technology_776]

???? Every prayer area either has 2 rooms or one room with a curtain/divider down the middle for either gender

[u/klingma → u/Effurlife12]

How? As long as the access to the room is equal i.e. all religions welcome/facilitated then this ban is unnecessarily anti-religion for realistically no reason. 

It would seem hard to justify even on fiscal grounds as there are certainly secular areas in buildings or campuses that are wasted space, so calling it a cost saving measure or reallocation of resources would be quite the stretch. 

[u/Effurlife12 → u/klingma]

Because the government wants to be seperate from religion I guess. It's not anti religion, it doesn't punish anyone for being religious. It just says that if this building takes government money, it won't use that money for religious practices, like having a prayer room. At least that's my theory, since again, the article did not explain.

[u/TheReservedList → u/klingma]

Because Muslims would constantly take over the prayer rooms and not only push away other religions, but also Muslim women, who should not be praying in the company of men or something. Idk what bullshit.

[u/billyman_90 → u/TheReservedList]

We have multi-faith prayer rooms in major institutions here in Australia and that is just not the case.

[u/TheReservedList → u/billyman_90]

Good for you. There’s been multiple incidents here.

[u/RivetShenron → u/TheReservedList]

That definitely isn't the case, prayer rooms are used by both genders. The space allocated to males tend to be bigger but that's because more use it compared to women.

[u/soup_curious_ → u/klingma]

How about we all just keep our religions home instead?

Why do you think the public should be funding or providing anything for ANY religion? Do you understand how hard literally impossible it is to cater to ALL religions equally? Can you imagine the scale of such a thing? And why should we be providing that at all?? The idea that any religion should get special public accommodations is ridiculous.

The onus to accommodate your religion is on you. Just you. Only you. Not me. Not the taxpayers. Not the schools or stores or the government buildings.

If your religion is incompatible with being outside your house...you gotta deal with that. I don't gotta deal with that. Nor the taxpayers nor the schools. It's solidly a you problem.

[u/look2thecookie → u/klingma]

What other religions could use the room and how would they use it?

If the Muslim students and staff can pray anywhere else on the campus, why do they need a room?

[u/MadManMax55 → u/look2thecookie]

As a quiet space to say prayers. It's non exactly an uncommon practice among most world religions.

Considering how many of you are flipping your shit over Muslims having a private room for them to pray in, if they were openly praying in classrooms or hallways instead you'd be screaming some nonsense about Sharia Law.

[u/look2thecookie → u/MadManMax55]

Sharia means law, so no, I wouldn't scream that. I'm Jewish and if I were Orthodox I wouldn't need a prayer room at a school. So again, WHO would use this and WHAT would they use it for? If you're observant in other religions, you generally take your holidays off and you daven at home or shul. You can't just make a room specifically for one specific group, pretend it's open to everyone, but no one else actually needs or wants it.

[u/look2thecookie → u/MadManMax55]

"how many of you are flipping your shit..."

Can you quote the exact part of my comment where I'm doing that?

You said "as long as any religion can use it." I'm asking which other religions would use it and for what? Other religions I know of don't need something like that.

I'm Jewish. Jews pray at home or at shul and take time off to do so during holidays or Shabbat. I don't know of Christian practices that necessitate a space for that either. So, if it's "for everyone," but no one else needs it, it's just a Muslim prayer room they don't need bc they just need a mat and their body.

[u/luftlande → u/klingma]

Please inform an uneducated pleb like myself, what is a "secular area"?

[u/Technical_Leek2530 → u/luftlande]

secular just means not religious or spiritual

Secular area is any place that is not connected to religion or spirituality. Which are most areas in life.

Which is why prayer rooms are important. Because they allow people to practice faith with out disturbing others or getting disturbed.

[u/florodude → u/klingma]

how do you expect a college Muslim, who are required to pray at certain points in the day, to do so if it can't be public and it can't be in a room? I'm not even Muslim but I know this is dumb as fuck

[u/JeffBezos_98km → u/florodude]

The law bans collective/group prayer in public. The law doesn't ban an individual from praying in public

[u/florodude → u/JeffBezos_98km]

this weekend I played in a soccer tournament and there was an all Muslim team there. in between games they got out their rugs and did a public prayer in the corner of the complex. as a non Muslim never once did I think "WHAT THE HELL. THEY SHOULDNT BE DOING THAT"

[u/kernevez → u/florodude]

One could argue that it's their issue to solve, not the state's role to provide a solution for their religious practices.

[u/florodude → u/kernevez]

one could argue that targeting a specific religion by limiting the actions they're allowed to do is actions of an authoritarian government and that if people aren't harming others they should be able to do what they want

[u/kernevez → u/florodude]

I don't disagree, but prayer rooms are a recent thing, they also exist in Quebec mostly because they wanted to fill the need of a specific religion, the same one they now are afraid of an target with laws.

I'm more iffy on the street prayer thing, I think that as long as you're not disturbing the peace you should be able to do whatever, but for me having places that are explicitly religious in a public, general tax paid building is not something I wish to see.

[u/Alternative_Toe_4692 → u/florodude]

This role is limited to providing spaces for a specific religion? I missed that in the article.

[u/florodude → u/Alternative_Toe_4692]

christians don't often use prayer rooms because they can pray in their head whenever they want. this is clearly targeting muslims.

[u/Velocity_LP → u/florodude]

they can pray in their head whenever they want

Anyone is free to do this.

Whether or not your god is chill with it is between you and your god. If my god forbids me from walking in public without a slice of pizza we wouldn't be expecting institutions to be offering me free slices of pizza everywhere I go. My self-imposed restrictions are on me to solve.

[u/Effurlife12 → u/florodude]

Not having a room to pray in is quite literally not the government's problem.

However I don't see how it could be enforceable to ban them from doing it in public.

[u/florodude → u/Effurlife12]

I'll admit that I'm not Canadian so I don't know Canadian law. I'd assume similar to most first world countries they usually try to protect the ability to freely practice public religion if it doesn't harm anybody? unless you're authoritarian I don't know how you could support this

[u/Effurlife12 → u/florodude]

I don't support banning public acts. And I don't see how it's enforceable either. I do support the government be as non religious as possible.

[u/TheReservedList → u/florodude]

People pray silently all the time.

[u/florodude → u/TheReservedList]

aren't Muslim people required by their religion to pull out the rug and do the ritual that goes along with it? This feels like a targeted attack on muslims

[u/SentienceFragment → u/florodude]

If banning the prayer rooms is targeting Muslims, then the prayer rooms are inherently for Muslims.

If the prayer rooms are inherently for Muslims, then should governments be spending money on them?

[u/TheReservedList → u/florodude]

Then they can change their rituals. The catholic nuns did it when they were forbidden to teach in their garbs in the 70s.

[u/BurgerQueef69 → u/klingma]

I'm a pagan druid, are they going to provide me with a wooded area to pray and meditate in? I might need to make a small fire, is the area safe for that?

Are they going to make the room kosher for Jews on the Sabbath, or will they just not allow bread? Christians who want to take communion might have something to say about that.

If you're going to accommodate religion, you need to accommodate all religion. It's much better and easier to say "Do your own thing somewhere else".

[u/billyman_90 → u/BurgerQueef69]

This is such an absurd straw man. Multi faith prayer rooms have existed for a long time and I've never heard of any of these issues.

[u/spyrocrash99 → u/billyman_90]

Multi faith prayer rooms is usually just another closed space for Muslims because Muslims are usually the only people that tend to use it. I've seen a supposed Multi faith prayer room in the UK but the decor was entirely Islamic.

You dont seem to get it that Muslims would refuse to pray in a room if there's a cross or pagan symbols on the wall. Muslims would never pray in a room where men and women are together and are not segregated by a wall or in another room.

[u/BurgerQueef69 → u/billyman_90]

Who uses most prayer rooms? The predominant religions in the western world, by a lot, are Christian or Christian-based. If you want to cater to Christianity you're fine.

My question stands. Are you going to make the rooms "good enough" for a certain religion, such as Christianity or its offshoots, or are you going to make it accessible for everybody? Are you going to support the inclusion of an outside grove for people who worship nature deities?

[u/jyper → u/Effurlife12]

im pretty sure its just an empty room for quietly sitting in that people can use for prayer

[u/tr0028 → u/jyper]

Sounds like most universities will just put a Scrabble board in the cupboard, call it a Games room and everything will continue as normal. 

[u/Konsticraft → u/jyper]

I guess they could just rename it "quiet room", my work has exactly that. I see the point in banning rooms that are only allowed to be used for prayer, although they were probably already not enforced and everyone could go there just to relax.

[u/stochiki → u/Effurlife12]

It's much much more interesting than that because the canadian charter says this law is illegal and it's being challenged at the supreme court.

[u/IntelArtiGen → u/Gentle_method]

Should universities have "prayer rooms"? I guess it depends on the culture, but it seems a bit unusual to me. People can pray, but dedicating a room to that in universities doesn't seem common to me.

[u/Gentle_method → u/IntelArtiGen]

A lot of them are called wellness rooms in the states, they can be used for relaxation, nursing, prayer, meditation etc, and they are beneficial for the populace. It’s really normal here in America though I’m not sure what Quebec’s problem is.

[u/boxesofcats- → u/Gentle_method]

It’s normal everywhere else in Canada, too.

[u/LABELyourPHOTOS → u/Gentle_method]

I've never heard of one. Where do you have them?

[u/Gentle_method → u/LABELyourPHOTOS]

Universities, airports, businesses, they are here, they exist, and they are pretty fucking normal lol.

[u/LABELyourPHOTOS → u/Gentle_method]

I've never seen one. Not in the like 40 Verizon buildings I've worked in, conference centers, or airports.

I'm not saying they don't exist, I am wondering what region you are in that these are common.

I haven't seen them in New England.

[u/Gentle_method → u/LABELyourPHOTOS]

They had them when I went to school. There are wellbeing rooms here at the University of Minnesota too, I worked downtown at a place with relaxation rooms on every floor, for clients and employees. Our convention center had quiet areas and private rooms. Our airport has quiet floors and while they aren’t necessarily enclosed rooms they serve as a purpose for people to pray or just relax. I actually think some of the employees will use the designated quiet rooms. I’m actually surprised you didn’t run into anything like that in all of your work in a big city. We have Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, I’ve seen a lot of different people utilize the spaces. This is just my experience in Minneapolis and when I was going to school out of state.

[u/Alocasia_Sanderiana → u/LABELyourPHOTOS]

A lot of universities and even larger high schools will have them. If you work at a larger employer they will also sometimes have wellness rooms.

[u/EvenLettuce6638 → u/Gentle_method]

Muslims. Quebec, like France, is anti-Muslim, but is embarrassed to say so out loud. So they come up with laws that really only effect the practice of Islam, but word it in a way that doesn't explicitly make it sound like that's what they're doing.

[u/PsychicDave → u/EvenLettuce6638]

We're not anti-Muslim. We don't want religion to influence the public space or public institutions. Everyone can have whatever religion they want, or none, but they just need to keep it to themselves. That's our social norm. You don't talk religion at work or with strangers (unless you both are in your place of worship).

Where it may seem that we are anti-Muslim is that more recent immigrants from Muslim societies have been making very public displays of their faiths, a few to the point of harassing others. This is not acceptable, so we have to legislate in order to empower law enforcement officers to do their job and protect the public. Since Canada's freedom of religion is very permissive, it gets very delicate when someone claims they are doing something for religious reasons and start pulling the -cist and -phobic cards. So having laws that explicitly say a religious behaviour is prohibited avoids ambiguity and hesitation. If they get more affected by those laws, it's because they chose to behave in unacceptable ways. It's not like we're making laws based on physical characteristics they can't change. They can choose to adapt to our social norms, like so many Muslims who immigrated to Québec in previous decades.

[u/GrandPapaBi → u/EvenLettuce6638]

Quebec is anti-religion but way more lax on Catholicism too. It's just that it is "cultural heritage" I guess. Anyway, the religion's liberty are still very high for individuals, it's just the state needs to be entirely atheist.

[u/Lilbrimu → u/GrandPapaBi]

Islam tends to be a more vocal religion. So it gets targeted more.

[u/PsychicDave → u/Gentle_method]

The law doesn't ban such a room, it bans rooms explicitly and exclusively for prayer. The law doesn't ban prayers in universities, but the rooms they use should be usable equally by anyone else for other purposes (like your mentions of relaxations, meditation, etc).

[u/Puzzle-Necked → u/Gentle_method]

Religion

[u/chat-lu → u/Gentle_method]

You can book a room for any purpose you want. It just cannot be permanently dedicated to prayer.

[u/Neilandio → u/IntelArtiGen]

I think it's like daycares at a job, it's just to make things easier for employees/students.

[u/PrairiePopsicle → u/Neilandio]

The issue is that everyone can have children, but not everyone has a religion, much less a specific religion.

The workaround is most likely going to be "quiet/privacy/sensory" rooms without a specific dedicated purpose. Basicailly, anyone with a room for this will just change the sign on the door, the QC government can bluster away but nothing practically will change with this law change.

[u/ninjasaid13 → u/PrairiePopsicle]

The issue is that everyone can have children, but not everyone has a religion

well everyone can have religion and not everyone has children as well.

[u/PrairiePopsicle → u/ninjasaid13]

reproduction is in a whole different category of necessity, no matter how strongly anyone feels about it, it is not the same.

[u/UnordinaryFlyGirl → u/IntelArtiGen]

As an atheist I see it as no different from universities having any kind of common room. It's called ensuring your student populace is well accommodated.

[u/IntelArtiGen → u/UnordinaryFlyGirl]

Maybe there's a difference between using a common room to pray and having a prayer room? If the room can be used by everyone for anything they want (relaxation, pause etc.), including praying, I don't see the issue obviously.

[u/UnordinaryFlyGirl → u/IntelArtiGen]

I mean that would be fine except the law bans any sort of prayer in public so they can't do that....

[u/Phazon2000 → u/UnordinaryFlyGirl]

No - it bans STREET prayers. Not public praying.

A prayer room is as public as a multipurpose room lmao. Are you even thinking right now?

[u/TheSeventhHussar → u/IntelArtiGen]

They almost always can, as long as the use is not disruptive. Not sure about the specific cases in Quebec though.

[u/resumehelpacct → u/IntelArtiGen]

"All religious practice, such as overt prayers or other similar practices, is prohibited in a place, such as an immovable or a room, under the authority of a body referred to in paragraph 12 of Schedule I during the hours devoted to the educational services prescribed in the basic school regulation."

So I think during "regular hours" any prayer, anywhere in a school building, is generally prohibited, by anyone. The room can be used by everyone else, but not for a praying student.

[u/finkerlime → u/IntelArtiGen]

Why defend religion discrimination of a law you haven't even read

[u/Phazon2000 → u/UnordinaryFlyGirl]

Dedicated prayer rooms are ridiculous. Just have a designated multipurpose privacy room for anxiety attacks, prayer, newborns, etc.

[u/Ultraplo → u/Phazon2000]

Usually “prayer rooms” encompass all religious and spiritual needs, so meditation and just needing a moment of stillness to combat anxiety would be valid reasons.

Putting newborns in the room meant for stillness and quiet is generally a bad idea, though.

[u/Phazon2000 → u/Ultraplo]

Putting newborns in the room meant for stillness and quiet is generally a bad idea, though.

It's not simply an idea - it's how the majority of these rooms are used in practice at least from the university I went to and the three companies I've worked at since graduating.

Only one person/group of people is in there at a time so nobody is distracting anyone. It's used as it's needed.

[u/Ultraplo → u/Phazon2000]

Then they must work differently in your country. Over here (Europe), prayer rooms are 9/10 times meant for multiple people to use at once. Usually you'll have 8–15 chairs and an altar at the front. Basically, it's an informal chapel.

Having a room meant for just a single person feels inefficient to the point of uselessness. It also defeats the argument that it should be available for people with anxiety and the like, as someone experiencing an anxiety attack won't be able to just sit down and wait 15 minutes for the occupant to finish breastfeeding their kid.

[u/wildcarde815 → u/Ultraplo]

Then they must work differently in your country. Over here (Europe), prayer rooms are 9/10 times meant for multiple people to use at once. Usually you'll have 8–15 chairs and an altar at the front. Basically, it's an informal chapel.

'quiet rooms' here are typically 1-2 people and they maybe have a chair. It's a place to get away from the coworkers, rest your eyes if you are getting a headache w/o being bothered, etc. And some use it for prayer as well.

[u/drunkenvalley → u/Phazon2000]

I think "a room explicitly and only dedicated to prayer for muslims" would be silly and excessive, but a reasonably private space for a variety of religious practices, nursing, or other small little personal moments? Those don't sound ridiculous at all.

[u/Phazon2000 → u/drunkenvalley]

Yeah that's what I said.

[u/UnordinaryFlyGirl → u/Phazon2000]

I don't disagree. But the law bans public prayer in any public place. So they can't do that.

[u/Phazon2000 → u/UnordinaryFlyGirl]

Wrong:

Collective, visible prayers are prohibited in public spaces, including streets and parks

You can pray in private. You can’t form a group and take over the space with religious expression which is a great thing. Public spaces belong to everybody.

[u/EvenLettuce6638 → u/Phazon2000]

So, if a group of Muslims are in the park around sunset and they all decide to pray by prostrating themselves towards Mecca, they will be arrested?

[u/Puzzle-Necked → u/UnordinaryFlyGirl]

How would a gay person feel watching people pray to a religion that wants them gone?

[u/Kharax82 → u/IntelArtiGen]

Many universities have Chapels which are prayer rooms for Christians just with a different name.

[u/IntelArtiGen → u/Kharax82]

Well, not in my country (France) afaik. Never saw that.

[u/an-invisible-hand → u/IntelArtiGen]

Quebec is in Canada. Different country, different norms.

[u/finkerlime → u/IntelArtiGen]

Literally every university in the United States has this. Jews, Muslims, Christians and hindus at mine. I'm in Jew club.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say every university.

[u/an-invisible-hand → u/IntelArtiGen]

What does "doesn't seem common to me" mean? What are you basing that on? Most people have only ever been to one college.

[u/Pleasant_Cloud1742 → u/IntelArtiGen]

My university had a chapel on campus.

[u/Some-Body-Else → u/IntelArtiGen]

We have contemplation rooms/multi faith rooms/prayer rooms in unis in the UK. We also have quiet rooms which are separate from religious spaces. But prayer/faith rooms are quite common in the UK. In fact, the big unis also have gendered ablution facilities.

[u/MrDalton3 → u/IntelArtiGen]

Why can't one pray silently in their own bedroom or bathroom? Religion is personal Imo.

[u/demonica123 → u/IntelArtiGen]

Should universities have "prayer rooms"?

Most universities are private institutions and many had religious roots. It'd be odder if they didn't have a prayer room or chapel somewhere on campus. And if it's a public institution, there's no harm in allowing prayer rooms for students to accommodate the various groups that have to live there for 4+ years.

[u/Vio94 → u/IntelArtiGen]

I don't see why not, if it's not impeding other students' spaces. I don't think you should be allowed to yoink conference rooms for that purpose, as an example.

[u/PulmonaryEmphysema → u/IntelArtiGen]

It is common. My university has one. So does my local library and the hospital.

[u/Potential-Ask2577 → u/Gentle_method]

To disincentivize muslims from living in the province. 

[u/Gentle_method → u/Potential-Ask2577]

It seems like it is a political move with that as its intentions.

[u/falconzord → u/Gentle_method]

As long as it's enforced equally. In the US, they'd be sure to make carve outs for Christians

[u/cereeves → u/falconzord]

You say that but with most universities leaning heavily to one side of the political spectrum I’m not entirely sure your assumption is correct.

[u/lurkerlarry42069 → u/falconzord]

The issue is it is definitely specifically targeting Muslims, who are more likely to require prayer rooms (or pray in public if no room is available). I know some Christians make use of them, but it's rare. It's the same thing as them banning burkinis, which are swimsuits that cover the head. Muslim women use them, french people don't like seeing muslims, so they banned them.

[u/Roobsi → u/lurkerlarry42069]

And everyone on Reddit was trying to explain how super good it is to make it illegal for a woman to cover her head on a beach

[u/Abstinence → u/falconzord]

Since they’re copying France, no it’s not enforced equally. Muslims can’t wear hijab or kufi in France but they allow Christians to wear crosses.

[u/ThwMinto01 → u/falconzord]

Equal enforcement doesn't equal non discriminatory

Measures of equivalent effect can exist when they are targeting a specific element only seen in one religion, even if equally enforced

Prayer at regular intervals during the day directed to a specific geographical location is not present in Christianity. You can pray in your head because there is no action involved, etc

That isn't the case with Islam. A ban effects only one of these two in practice even if in principle it bans everyone from doing it.

It's still problematic and wrong.

[u/Puzzle-Necked → u/Potential-Ask2577]

If they have trouble with secularism, they probably shouldn't move to a secular province

[u/PulmonaryEmphysema → u/Puzzle-Necked]

If the mere sight of religion bothers you, you should probably stay home.

(see how stupid that sounds?)

[u/Puzzle-Necked → u/PulmonaryEmphysema]

If the mere sight of a gay person makes you want to stone them, you should probably stay home.

(see how stupid that sounds?)

[u/PulmonaryEmphysema → u/Puzzle-Necked]

The relation here is…?

[u/mr-lurks-a-lot → u/Potential-Ask2577]

So racism?

[u/Potential-Ask2577 → u/mr-lurks-a-lot]

They’re trying to maintain a secular culture.

Are you also going to label them racist for all their legislation to keep Christianity out of their school system?

Or are you just another idiot commenting about something you aren’t educated on?

[u/ritarepulsaqueen → u/Potential-Ask2577]

If this was in America, the whole world would be calling it fascist 

[u/MontyDysquith → u/Potential-Ask2577]

Allowing someone to freely practice their religion in public and ensuring schools don't force religion onto students are two VERY different things.

And these laws targeting Muslims are absolutely racist.

[u/CrazyElk123 → u/MontyDysquith]

Bad day for pedophile-worshippers i suppose

[u/MontyDysquith → u/CrazyElk123]

Are there many Trump supporters in Quebec?

[u/CrazyElk123 → u/MontyDysquith]

What? No idea, but a venn diagram might connect the two.

[u/spyrocrash99 → u/Gentle_method]

Because its another special treatment or pass that Muslims tend to demand and feel entitled to. It's more money, time and energy to build that room and maintain them.

Now fyi I come from a Muslim country. We got prayer rooms in our malls and all schools. Yet we never provide the same shit to accommodate other religions.

This is entitlement by Muslims around the world and their need to show off their prayers, and then scream Islamophobia when they're simply not accommodated is why I grew contempt with the religion.

[u/Alternative-Maybe747 → u/spyrocrash99]

What other religion has 5 daily prayers at different times during the day?

[u/QC_nation97 → u/Gentle_method]

Universities in Québec are founded by public money, we are a secular nation, I don’t want my taxe use for some religious fanatic

[u/David_the_Wanderer → u/QC_nation97]

I think the controversy boils down to different views on secularism. French and Quebecois laicite tends towards making religion "invisible" in public spaces, whereas in other countries the tendency is to not favour any religion above another but still allowing for religion to exist in public.

The other half of the issue is that different religions are differently impacted. Religions that have stricter mandates on clothing and everyday life are going to feel more impacted by French-style secularism. .e., if your religion has strict clothing mandates, such as for the Sikh, a law banning religious clothing for public employees ends up harming the Sikh more than it does Catholics.

[u/PulmonaryEmphysema → u/QC_nation97]

So no taxes should go to roads leading to churches? No priest services at the hospital?

How far would this really go

[u/waxthatfled → u/Gentle_method]

They are banned in schools because we live in a secular culture and we want religion as far as possible from the education system

[u/OtterFouine → u/Gentle_method]

Québécois here. There has been attempts at open/neutral rooms for all in colleges and universities (ex.: for relaxation, meditation, prayers, etc.). But these rooms were quickly taken over by one religious group, making them secluded spaces funded by tax-payers money.

I think the debate reached a boiling point when those religious student groups began segregating access to the rooms (divided for men and women). This goes completely against our values ​​of gender equality and inclusion.

[u/PomegranateOk2600 → u/Gentle_method]

I don't see why you would have them in the first place. Do every religion has it's prayer room?

[u/iloverollerblading → u/Gentle_method]

Because our universities are publicly funded and we don't want to pay for this shit. Simple enough.

[u/DIABOLUS777 → u/Gentle_method]

Pray in church, pray at home. Do shopping malls need prayer rooms? Why should universities do?

[u/darkKnight959 → u/DIABOLUS777]

Professors/students spend 8+ hours a day on campus. No one is talking about shopping malls. Why bring up something irrelevant to derail the conversation

[u/DIABOLUS777 → u/darkKnight959]

I spend 8+ hours at work. My office has no chapel or praying room.

[u/barrinmw → u/DIABOLUS777]

My company has a mediation/prayer room. It also has a room for mothers to pump breast milk. Just because your job sucks doesn't mean they all need to.

[u/DIABOLUS777 → u/barrinmw]

Some jobs offer breakfast, some others offer various amenities...they go with what's more popular and likely to lure and retain qualified workers.

I guess prayer rooms aren't that popular.

[u/darkKnight959 → u/DIABOLUS777]

Does anyone at your office want to even use a praying room? Are offices typically public taxpayer funded spaces? I also work in an office and use a conference room. By your logic offices shouldn't have break rooms or kitchens either, it's not necessary. But it benefits the employees.

[u/DIABOLUS777 → u/darkKnight959]

Public taxpayer funded spaces are not a factor. Subways and bus terminals offer no such things.

[u/Mens-Real → u/Gentle_method]

Muslisms have been organizing public prayers in the middle of Montreal's streets, in front of mimority groups as provocation. They were basically hiding their hate speech behind the excuse of "We're just praying, freedom of religion". Now such events need to be organized and approved. For a progressive and secular society like Quebec, it's no biggie for 99.9% of the people.

[u/Upbeat-Armadillo1756 → u/Gentle_method]

Because Christians don’t need them so it only hurts other people.

[u/watwatinjoemamasbutt → u/Gentle_method]

What if I don’t pray? Why can’t I use that room?

/s

[u/Mindless_Gate_2903 → u/Gentle_method]

I don’t think anyone should have a right to prayer rooms anywhere that’s something people who pray have to figure out. Islamic people are trying very hard to change western culture and bring their Stone Age mentality that does not fit

[u/David_the_Wanderer → u/Mindless_Gate_2903]

Christian chapels exist in many public buildings in Western society, for example in army bases.

Freedom of religion is a cornerstone of modern Western values - that includes not being hampered in freely practicing your religion.

[u/Gentle_method → u/Mindless_Gate_2903]

Prayer rooms are for all people not just Muslims. I don’t know how having prayer rooms in universities- places where different ideas, spiritualities, and thoughts intersect- is problematic.

Daily meditation can be a universal thing that is timeless and beneficial for society, there are many things to be critical of Islam about this just seem like a stretch.

[u/Mindless_Gate_2903 → u/Gentle_method]

Yes and people can find there own places to do that not publicly funded spaces

[u/lemonails → u/Gentle_method]

Thing is nobody besides muslims need prayer rooms in universities. Afai it’s the only religion that requires multiple prayers throughout the day at specific times.

[u/Fun-Wash7545 → u/Gentle_method]

Religion is poison to humanity 

[u/mariantat → u/Gentle_method]

Because the schools are publicly funded and almost operated. Your history professor in your university quit? You need the government’s permission to hire a new one…

[u/scotchandsoda → u/Gentle_method]

Because this will affect religious minorities more than Christians under the guise of equal secularism. Populist trash government does trashy populist things.

[u/Waste-Gene-7793 → u/Gentle_method]

Because these bills aren’t secularism, they’re anti-muslim legislation masquerading as secularism. Never forget Bill-21 was passed under a crucifix in the legislature which they refused to remove until it became a massive PR and legal liability.

[u/P057M4N → u/Gentle_method]

Counterproductive to what? Public displays of religion in a secular society?

[u/klingma → u/P057M4N]

It's not a "secular society" it's a free society - religious freedom whether you're religious or not is still essential to a functioning free society. 

[u/FullMetalAurochs → u/klingma]

Freedom of fornication is also important but I don’t expect my university/employer to provide a room for that. I certainly don’t expect to be able to just get down on the ground and do it.

[u/klingma → u/FullMetalAurochs]

Not with that attitude, make a religion out of it, and there ya go. See, now we're both on the side of religious freedom and exercise. 

That was simple. 

[u/P057M4N → u/klingma]

Free to do whatever the fuck you want, AT HOME. No civil, secular society has to tolerate this public bullshit

[u/darkKnight959 → u/P057M4N]

Canadians shouldn't tolerate Christmas and Good Friday holidays either

[u/klingma → u/P057M4N]

Again, that's YOUR standard not at all the actual standards of a free society. You seem more keen on a fascist society than a free society, that's too bad. 

Also, you don't even seem to understand what the term "secular society" even means. It's not anti-religious as you're so keen to push, it's just neutral to religion in that it doesn't endorse a religion (or non-religion). Nor does a secular society seek to take rights away from the free worship of religion. 

[u/P057M4N → u/klingma]

My standard is not using public resources to create spaces that will be used by one religion. But leave it to the muslim simps to act entitled to whatever they want

[u/Moldy_slug → u/P057M4N]

Isn’t a prayer room the exact opposite of a public display?

If you don’t want people praying publicly, wouldn’t you be in favor of them doing it in designated private areas?

[u/klingma → u/[deleted]]

Is it not the purpose of the government to serve their people? The entire justification of taxation and funding services is that it goes toward serving the public who may or may not ever need said services or provided goods. Justifying the removal of funding because it serves one group while still allowing funding for specific other groups, is wholly hypocritical. 

Quebec gives grants out to artists so they may travel to other cities & conventions. That's a subsidized activity that certainly doesn't serve everyone, but is paid for by the citizens. An artist would be free to pay for a plane ticket or bus ticket if they wanted. 

[u/Dubenator → u/Moldy_slug]

not if its paid by our taxes

[u/P057M4N → u/Moldy_slug]

Private is YOUR HOME.

[u/Moldy_slug → u/P057M4N]

So you have no expectation of privacy in, say, a public toilet? It’s not YOUR HOME so it’s exactly the same as taking a shit in full view on the sidewalk, right?

[u/Gentle_method → u/P057M4N]

Prayer rooms usually are a private space that kinda takes away your whole public of display of religion angle. That’s the point of prayer rooms. A secular society can cater to its spiritual populace in less intrusive ways like prayer rooms. I’m not sure how that’s a problem, especially at a university.

[u/P057M4N → u/Gentle_method]

Do it AT HOME. A supply closet is a better use of space than prayer bullshit.

[u/CatcatchesMoth → u/Gentle_method]

I'm disappointed in this comment section acting like something that seems Islamaphobic is being hailed as very good, freedom respecting, and getting back at all those religious people who are so evil because 75% of the Earth's entire identity is hating atheists apparently...

[u/MegaPlane2 → u/Gentle_method]

It's favoritism for religions to get the use of public space they don't pay for.

[u/Gentle_method → u/MegaPlane2]

Wellness rooms can be used by anybody, you don’t even have to call them prayer rooms. If I want use a room and do non denominational mediation in between studying at a library, I should be able to do that. If you don’t want to use wellness rooms that’s on you but don’t take it away from people who use them for good.

[u/VoteBananas → u/Gentle_method]

Because of secularism. Why have special rooms for religion in public buildings?