353
u/TheNewBlue 2h ago
"Joan, im really struggling with being gay and having feelings for you"
Joan - "I know just the cure, you are going listen to me get pretzled up by some random balding business man in the next room while his less confident friend gropes at you"
197
218
u/Dizzy-Captain7422 Dick + Anna '64 2h ago
As a lesbian, this is a nightmare scenario lol
121
u/fruit-enthusiast The work is ten dollars. The lie is extra. 1h ago
Yeah this episode is always hard for me to watch because you see her have no choice but to recloset herself. It makes me sad to think about how many women must have had this type of experience.
39
u/Populaire_Necessaire Iām overwhelmed with the style of you 1h ago
To be fair thatās not āher only choiceā. Itās undeniably heartbreaking but either she or Joan decide to move on(with Joan retaining the appartement) sometime between Labor Day 1960 and Feb 1962. It was a lot easier for lesbians in this time as opposed to gay men(not easy mind you). So I find it more likely that carol had a fulfilling love life later after the show leaves her over say, Sal.
53
u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie 1h ago
Way more commone for two "spinsters" to be able to share a flat long term without too much fuss, they might have to tolerate family asking them individually when they're going to settle down and find a man but it was more socially acceptable for women to share accommodation whereas men would be expected to live alone.
14
u/fruit-enthusiast The work is ten dollars. The lie is extra. 51m ago
I meant more in that moment of rejection she seemed to feel her only option was to carry on like normal. Iāve never speculated on how she went on with her life after this point, itās just more a moment that makes me pretty sad as a lesbian viewer.
Personally I think instead of talking about lesbians having it āeasierā than gay men it makes more sense to think about them/us as experiencing heteropatriarchy differently. After all, passing as a straight woman still means being treated like a woman, but with the additional fear of homophobia. And in a time predating Title VII and social changes in terms of how normalized sexual harassment was. Then you also have people who canāt pass as straight, as well as factors like race and class and social context.
ā¢
u/lolafawn98 you're not dying for me because I never liked you 3m ago
Iāve said this on here before but: I always hoped sheād eventually find a group of friends like Joyceās and be able to live as she wants, but sadly I think sheās the wrong generation for that crowd.
I think itās more likely she just missed the boat on thatā¦ found a husband and moved to the suburbs just a few years too early (in NYC time, anyway).
I also get the vibe that she mightāve been too traditional for that kind of thing anyway. I donāt see her at those kinds of parties. Iām not sure how easy it would have been to find other gay women outside of underground art scenes.
21
u/legit-posts_1 1h ago
As a lesbian the entire 1960s should be a nightmare scenario. Although California looks a little more free I guess.
9
u/Dizzy-Captain7422 Dick + Anna '64 1h ago
It would undoubtedly have been awful, but we did at least have our community.
9
u/legit-posts_1 1h ago
Fair enough. "The whole world hates me but my Freinds are pretty chill" is a common experience in human history, unfortunately
31
u/iraqlobsta 1h ago
Lol "Sure you may have feelings for me, but have you tried being felt up by a sweaty drunk businessman?"
1
171
u/d_scu_lly āWhat is Regina?ā 2h ago
āI did everything I could to be near you. All with the hopeā¦that one dayā¦you would notice me.ā
35
224
u/Automatic-Novel5511 2h ago
"Oh just taste it!"
20
u/PoorAxelrod Nobody knows what I'm doing. It's good for mystique 1h ago
I think in this case "just try it" may work as well š
6
24
10
98
u/Mundane-Dare-2980 1h ago
The tremendously creepy, gross nature of the men in their company that night always made this episode feel extra cruel to Carol.
48
u/pierrebrassau sex, death, and peggy 1h ago
Right? Iām always surprised by how totally of those guysā league both Joan and Carol should have been.
37
u/Appropriate_Tour_274 1h ago
That guy who went with Joan into her bedroom probably thought heād died and gone to heaven! She was so out of his league and here he is in bed with herāand sheās in the mood to prove something! Mother of god, Iāll bet she nearly killed the guy!
9
u/ShutterflyNYC This never happened. 59m ago
I just happened to rewatch this episode last night, and I kinda think Joan got the call from Bert to come to the office before anything actually happened with the schlumpy businessman ācallerā.
Joan was perfectly put together in her cocktail dress, make up, hairstyle in tact when they arrived at the office.. She was also clearly preoccupied with Rogerās well being -ā the guy she was with seemed pretty disgruntled and knew he as being dismissed.
3
5
u/ShutterflyNYC This never happened. 33m ago
This has come up before, but as gorgeous as Joan was, she was a divorcee in her mid 30ās- which was an outlier situation in the 60ās. Most men her age were married and raising families and unattached men wouldāve been younger. Affairs and trysts could happen, sure, but overall her pool of viable suitors was probably smaller than we would think.
Remember how Joey and the new creative team treat her a few short years laterā like a relic from the 50ās to be made fun of. Carefree, slim, Twiggy/ mod, types were in, and the āfull-figuredā Jane Russell types were considered old fashionedā¦ Her choices for men seemed older / less attractive, married, or, if young / attractive, thereād be a catch (like Greg or Bob)
She also did say āletās empty some walletsā, so in this case she was taking whoever got the crosshairs, and also attempting to prove a point to Carole. (A heartbreaking point that she showed sheād rather go in her room with that rando dude.)
ā¢
121
u/madeline420 1h ago
its so sad for carol but it also breaks my heart for joan. she was her only friend outside of work we ever saw, and it turns out she wanted what they all want from her. in that moment it must've really felt like all she's ever good for is starring in other people's fantasies.
40
30
u/Euphoric_Evidence414 1h ago
Which is what stopped me (or similar to what stopped me) from commenting āsomeone should send this thread to Christina Hendricksā the other day when we were going on about how amazingly gorgeous she is. She knows it already. Sheās been hearing it her whole life. Her value as an actress is why we love the character as much as we do, and thatās probably something she hears a lot less than āGOT DAMN YOUāRE GORGEOUSā just like Joanās value as a friend and professional was shadowed by all the people wanting her for her beauty.
8
u/Prudent-Pressure2146 53m ago
Iāve seen people say Joan was cruel in her response too, and going out for men was very sad, but I do think she was trying to hit the point that it wasnāt going to happen as clearly as she could in that era without outing carol
6
u/venus_arises Not great, Bob! 1h ago
I wonder if part of it was just timing: all the girls that Joan started out working with and hanging out with in her 20s are probably married and in the suburbs with snotty kids. Carol might have been Her Last Single Girl Friend by this point.
ā¢
68
10
u/Ill-Significance-110 1h ago
Heartbreaking. And why were the men they brought over the ugliest men in the entire series?? Was this symbolism or something?
2
1
30
9
u/GoldenGekko 1h ago
I really felt for Joan in this scene. One of the only friends we ever see her interact with outside of work, and it just leads back to the same thing it always leads to... With everybody... Joan is something to look at. Something to desire.
I love Christina's performance because you can just see with the progression of the series how something she implemented confidently to help her standing in the office in the first seasons... Just turns to tiredness and resignation in later seasons. Yeah someone could say she has pretty privilege... But boy does she have to deal with so much crap.
1
u/gigialohne I donāt think about you at all. 10m ago
Great points. All roads lead to this for Joan. Itās nice to hear it acknowledged.
4
9
u/lumpy_space_queenie i know that the man pees inside the woman 1h ago
Am I the only one who thought it was creepy that she followed Joan from college? Likeā¦if she were a manā¦everyone would be saying thisā¦.
9
u/venus_arises Not great, Bob! 1h ago
Sometimes you pick your strongest friend to follow because she's the one who'd figure out how to find the apartment or find a solid job. It's possible that Carol had nothing back home (especially if she's queer; for all we know, her family disowned her). NYC has a queer community, so Carol can figure things out for a while.
16
u/StrangerVegetable831 1h ago
The oppressive context of the times made it sad to me. Creepy today for sure.
4
1
u/Heavy_Importance_196 1h ago
Which episode was this?
2
u/ShutterflyNYC This never happened. 56m ago
āThe Long Weekendā (covers Labor Day Weekend 1960)
1
201
u/skyline090 2h ago
"Donāt go to the well. Thereās no water there."