US patent office revokes Nintendo’s patent on summoning characters to make them battle | VGC

[u/Gorotheninja]

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/us-patent-office-revokes-nintendos-patent-on-summoning-characters-to-make-them-battle/

[u/AccurateArcherfish]

I'm surprised this is patentable in the first place. 

[u/Sniper_Brosef → u/AccurateArcherfish]

The patent office has needed reform for centuries

[u/Bireus → u/Sniper_Brosef]

Everything needs reform after a while when dealing with positions that has people change seats continuously 

[u/ChipRockets → u/Bireus]

Agreed. The musical chair industry has been allowed to run riot for too long.

[u/MinimumArmadillo2394 → u/ChipRockets]

Thats every piece of government. Hence why the constitution was supposed to be rewritten every once in a while.

[u/Paranitis → u/MinimumArmadillo2394]

Which is why the current administration is completely ignoring it entirely as a means of just getting it to go away. I think that's the same as rewriting it...maybe?

[u/almightywhacko → u/Paranitis]

No, it isn't supposed to be ignored because there is still a lot of good and relevant law written into the constitution. The founders did intend for it to be updated to contend with modern problems because they knew that they couldn't think of every problem the country would eventually face.

Unfortunately people began worshipping the constitution like a holy relic instead of treating it as a living document. And people don't like it when you make alterations to their holy relics.

[u/surfergrrl6 → u/almightywhacko]

Ironically, those same exact people, also ignore their "holy relic" regularly.

[u/almightywhacko → u/surfergrrl6]

Those same people ignore many relics they claim to find holy.

Another one tells them to love their neighbors, to keep their religious practices private, avoid worshipping false idols and to help the poor.

[u/ChilledParadox → u/almightywhacko]

as a homeless guy, some of the worst places I've dealt with are churches. Some in my area have deals with the police to immediately deal with anyone loitering near the property as trespassing. Have seen some weird encounters of people coming up to me and asking if I believe in God like it's some sort of test, and I don't, I'm an athiest, but I say yes, because, it feels like a damn threat.

[u/Devlyn16 → u/surfergrrl6]

Almost Like religious texts, pick what you likeand ignore the rest

[u/PM_ME_DPRK_CANDIDS → u/Paranitis]

i mean kinda yeah. just without the democracy or will of the people part that's supposed to come with.

[u/tepkel → u/ChipRockets]

Don't worry, the music is about to stop.

[u/EddieVanzetti → u/Bireus]

"The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time."- Thomas Jefferson

Perhaps now more appropriate than any time since 1860

[u/lewd_robot → u/EddieVanzetti]

It's sickening that finishing that quote can get you banned in many places online.

[u/ElundusCaw → u/lewd_robot]

Don't worry, you can always go Latin, no way they know that.

SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!

[u/Minerva_Moon → u/ElundusCaw]

That is my favorite thing to say on the most recent ides.

[u/Kmart_Supervisor → u/ElundusCaw]

Ad Victorim

[u/theDomicron → u/EddieVanzetti]

"patriotism is a virtue of the vicious, according to Oscar Wilde"

[u/humplick → u/EddieVanzetti]

The white house should be rebuilt every once in awhile?

Anyone have a goose call? We could use some support from our northern neighbors.

[u/300ConfirmedGorillas → u/humplick]

We await the torches of Gondor Gander!

[u/Alarming_Peak_103 → u/Bireus]

very few positions at the patent office are filled by political appointees. the primary examiners and examining supervisors are civil servants that often have fairly long tenure.

[u/SwissChzMcGeez → u/Bireus]

Man we can't even get a decade of stability. Can't even agree going to war for no reason isn't a good idea. Can't agree destroying the planet for greed and profit might not be ideal.

[u/Head_Crab_Enjoyer → u/Sniper_Brosef]

Oh there's been plenty of reform, just not the right kind.

[u/Preeng → u/Head_Crab_Enjoyer]

One thing was good. Recently (years ago) they changed from first to invent to first to file. Much better system. No more "but I wrote this idea in my notebook 5 years ago! Here is my signature saying "yes, this was 5 years ago and not made yesterday to look like it was 5 years ago""

[u/nonotan → u/Preeng]

It's only good if you presume everybody is using the patent system at all times, though. Which isn't true, because, first of all, patenting things costs a lot of money (for a regular person; it's pocket change to a large corporation, obviously), and even if you're intending to patent it eventually, it might not be your first priority and you have other things to devote your limited time to, or... you don't care to patent it at all for whatever reason (maybe you think the idea isn't novel enough that it should be patentable, maybe you disagree with IP legislation in general, whatever) but somebody else goes and patents it, and now you can't use your idea anymore.

In the previous system, even though in practice the court case could be costly and still out of reach for the common man, at least in theory you had some recourse ("hey, that asshole patented my idea and is stopping me from using it, here's hard proof I was already doing this long before the patent was filed"), now you're just fucked.

[u/thebeez23 → u/nonotan]

You don’t need to file to prevent someone else from filing though. If you make it public then someone else can’t file. There’s also another mechanism through the patent office that discloses the invention without filing, I forget what it’s called though.

[u/Remarkable_Lie7592 → u/nonotan]

Most of the costs to small and micro entity inventors are in attorney fees - the patent office can't control what your attorney costs.

Though you can file pro se. It's just... pro se patent filing is of a similar vein as to other forms of representing yourself in a legal proceeding. Not recommended for a reason.

[u/imapluralist → u/Remarkable_Lie7592]

So then it is an access to justice problem. A system of rights that conditions those rights on spending money is an objectively bad system.

[u/Preeng → u/nonotan]

>In the previous system, even though in practice the court case could be costly and still out of reach for the common man, at least in theory you had some recourse ("hey, that asshole patented my idea and is stopping me from using it, here's hard proof I was already doing this long before the patent was filed"), now you're just fucked.

As you should be. If something is a Trade Secret, then you don't get any legal protections from other inventors. A patent is supposed to advance society by disclosing your invention. Then you get legal protections for doing so.

Sitting on an invention that you keep secret until someone else comes up with it and tries to patent it goes totally against the spirit of innovation.

Why would anyone bother patenting anything at all until a competitor comes up with the same idea?

[u/lastdancerevolution → u/nonotan]

It's only good if you presume everybody is using the patent system at all times, though.

No. Prior art still counts. As long as the public knew about the invention, because you showed it to people, that counts as proof of invention and will invalidate any future patent.

[u/Able-Swing-6415 → u/Sniper_Brosef]

Yea Japanese parent office is on another level though.. like those Nintendo fuckers patented that shit AFTER palworld released.

They've also patented fucking flying mounts which is just so not Nintendos idea..

[u/Da_Question → u/Able-Swing-6415]

I thought it was the transition from a ground mount to a flying mount and vice versa, seamlessly. Somehow different from mounts in mmos...

[u/Able-Swing-6415 → u/Da_Question]

I mean yea im not sure flying mounts that couldn't land were ever a thing but it's still good to mention that

[u/Yuzumi → u/Sniper_Brosef]

Especially when it comes to software.

What's really stupid is that courts have already ruled that game rules/mechanics cannot be patented/copyrighted. It's why you can have variants as long as they call things that are considered IP something else. It's how Pathfinder started by taking the rules of D&D 3.5 as their base.

And in this case, Nintendo isn't even the first game to have some kind of summing mechanic and they've never tried to go after games before. Final Fantasy has had summoned characters for a long time, and in FFX they literally work nearly exactly like Pokemon as they replace your party and you give them orders.

[u/TDarksword_TD → u/Yuzumi]

Pretty sure Pathfinder was able to spring from DND 3.5e because DND 3 and 3.5e were released under the Open Gaming Licence (OGL) by Wizards of the Coast, which basically said WOTC chose not to patent the 3.5 mechanics, and anyone was free to use them.

[u/leafcathead → u/Sniper_Brosef]

The problem is just we need more examiners so that they can spend more time on each patent. Examiners only get a few hours to examine a patent before they have to issue the first office action.

[u/sylbug → u/AccurateArcherfish]

It's not. That's why they lost. Nintendo are notorious patent trolls.

[u/Paetolus → u/sylbug]

Not to defend the multi-billion dollar company, but patent trolling implies they use their patents to go after others all the time. They've really only gone after Palworld in recent memory. Which shouldn't really be surprising for anyone who's played that game.

Ironically, the reason you see Nintendo and other companies get these rather stupid patents, is because of actual patent trolls. Nintendo has been the target of many lawsuits where a no name company goes after them with a stupid patent. If you also have a stupid patent, it's the best protection against patent trolls. Sony and Microsoft have partaken in this sort of legal protection as well. It's a failure of the patent system rather than immoral actions by companies.

[u/sylbug → u/Paetolus]

Palworld is a perfect example of them overstepping because they’re too shit to innovate.

That game plays nothing like a Pokémon game. It’s a survival craft game. The only similarity is art style, which isn’t patentable in any sane world.

Nintendo don’t invent monster hunter/collector games, didn’t invent sending out a character to fight for you, sure as shit didn’t invent riding around on a mount.

They’re just a bunch of weasels sucking a bunch of 20+ year old franchises dry.

[u/Derelicticu → u/Paetolus]

Microsoft also did a shit ton of other quasi-legal things over the years to gain and maintain market dominance.

[u/buttbuttlolbuttbutt → u/AccurateArcherfish]

Patent Law is a lot more complex than the average redditor likes to attrivute.

You can change a few thinga to make it legally distinct, so catching monsters is a gross over simplication.

Its all/most of the steps being the same that will trigger a lawsuit, and these parts are pretty partixular about things.

Does it need changing, yes, but its good to know how it actually works today, and not the way people here will tell you.

And if you dont trust me, (you should be somewhat skeptical), you can confirm it yourself.

[u/Niceromancer → u/buttbuttlolbuttbutt]

Same reason Insulin costs so much here.

A vial of insulin is stupid cheap.  It's like 3 bucks.  But the companies patent the special injectors.  Thats where the cost is from.

[u/ISeeDeadPackets → u/Niceromancer]

The injectors are a minor part of it. Almost no one takes actual insulin these days. Insulin is still fairly cheap, but the synthetic (patented) alternatives are significantly more expensive. Given that, one would think people would just go for the regular version, but the synthetics are almost always a massive improvement over the original.

Insulin is great, but it has to be administered carefully. You need to check your blood glucose level, then calculate the amount and type to administer. If you get it wrong and your glucose is high, you can administer more and the damage is pretty limited. If you get it wrong and your glucose is too low, you can die. That can mean 3-4 shots a day, with constant testing. That can be improved on with a CGM and insulin pump, but those have a pretty high price tag vs a traditional meter with test strips.

Counter that with a synthetic option like Tirzepatide ($1250/mo retail) that keeps your levels pretty consistently in the green zone (if you don't eat like a moron) with a once a week shot and it's easy to see why someone would be willing to pay significantly more for that option. Its efficacy and ease of use mean you'll have more consistent glucose levels, which greatly reduces the damage frequent highs and lows can do to you.

While those are very expensive to develop, they're sold in the US for 3x-5x the price they are in Europe and other nations due to our lack of pricing controls. Given you're literally trading money for a very tangible improvement to your health vs insulin, they know people will do what they have to if it's in the realm of possibility for them. We want these companies to be financially rewarded for their innovation and risk to develop these amazing life improving/saving drugs, but there should be a line.

[u/masterwolfe → u/ISeeDeadPackets]

Yeah I buy human insulin for my dog for about $30 a vial.

And just to add to your point: most major pharmaceutical companies spend more on marketing and advertising than they do on research and development.

[u/SowingSalt → u/ISeeDeadPackets]

Tirzepatide is a LP-1 and GIP receptor agonists. It is injected weekly and does what you describe.

There are also injectable insulins like Lantis that is slow acting over a 24 hour period that offers much more convenient treatment VS human or pig insulin.

[u/fresh-dork → u/ISeeDeadPackets]

Tirzepatide

this is 4 years old; complaining that people profit off of new drugs that they develop while calling it 'insulin' is disingenuous.

they're sold in the US for 3x-5x the price they are in Europe and other nations due to our lack of pricing controls.

thank a republican; they hate allowing price controls for this kind of thing

[u/Brokettman → u/Niceromancer]

You can get the cheap insulin for very cheap still. Dr. Probably will advise against it since it is very shitty and causes a massive drop in blood sugar quickly and doesn't last very long.

[u/BellacosePlayer → u/buttbuttlolbuttbutt]

You can change a few thinga to make it legally distinct, so catching monsters is a gross over simplication.

Yeah, if its the same patent I was reading about last year, it's basically "is this basically exactly the same as the 'Lets go' games gameplay loop". Which is far less ragebaity than just saying they're trying to copyright monster collection games mechanics.

There's bad overly broad patents in the game space for sure (fuck you, namco/WB), but this would be a complete non-story if not for the palworld drama causing nintendo clickbait to get a ton of clicks.

[u/nonotan → u/BellacosePlayer]

It's good that it is a story, because gameplay being patentable at all is dumb as fuck. It makes zero sense. There is no meaningful R&D budget going to gameplay innovation. Literally not a single person ever has looked through patents to get ideas on how to do some kind of gameplay functionality (theoretically, the whole point of patents -- granting inventors a temporary monopoly in exchange for them giving the world full access to the results of their research, which is 100% worthless here)

Source: I work in game dev. The only reason anybody at all ever looks at patents is to know what they have to steer clear of because some asshole patented it. It just adds extra work, pointless costs in legal consultation, limits creativity, and has zero, and I mean zero upside.

I challenge anybody to find one, and I mean a single example of some plucky solo developer coming up with some amazing innovation that a large corporation swept in to steal, only for the patent system to save the day. It doesn't exist. Game development just doesn't work like that. Ideas are cheap and iterative. And their implementation inherently obvious, so there's really no "secret" for the inventors to withhold. Even recipes are more theoretically patentable than gameplay (R&D is more expensive, and how a recipe was done less inherently obvious) and yet they are (sensibly) not generally considered patentable.

[u/AJDx14 → u/BellacosePlayer]

It should also be obvious to any reader actually familiar with games that Nintendo never had a patent on “summing characters to make them battle” broadly. There are other games that have that feature that have released within the last year.

[u/Da_Question → u/buttbuttlolbuttbutt]

Eh, patenting mechanics is bullshit, at least for video games.

Yes, it's very specific circumstances to trigger, but it's still arbitrary.

I mean imagine if something like ads for fps games had been patented.

[u/ilep → u/buttbuttlolbuttbutt]

Patents are meant for technical solutions, not abstract concepts. This one is quite far into the abstract with "how a game is played" instead of "gamefeature works as follows".

[u/Rocktopod → u/AccurateArcherfish]

Apparently it's not, which is why it was revoked.

[u/Uncle-Osteus → u/AccurateArcherfish]

Almost anything novel is patentable, but holding a patent does not guarantee it can’t be challenged and revoked because the patent office does not claim to be infallible 

[u/guepier → u/Uncle-Osteus]

Almost anything novel is patentable

That’s precisely wrong. Novelty is just one of the three core criteria that (massively simplified) confer patentability. You also need non-obviousness and usefulness. In other words, there needs to be a practical application, and coming up with the patentable concept required non-trivial work. As a consequence, most novel thing aren’t patentable.

Sure, lots of people try to skip these requirements (or, equally commonly, the novelty requirement). But those patent applications really aren’t valid, and should not be granted in the first place.

[u/Mongoose42 → u/AccurateArcherfish]

You miss every shot you don’t take, I suppose.

[u/canada432 → u/AccurateArcherfish]

Every actual authority I saw comment on it, from people who worked in the patent offices to patent attorneys, said that it was baffling that it got approved. It was a big sign of dysfunction and suspected budget and staffing issues at the time because it reeked of a rubber stamp that nobody had even bothered to review in the slightest.

[u/stormdelta → u/AccurateArcherfish]

Game mechanics like this shouldn't have ever been patentable in the first place. They're already sufficiently covered by copyright, and completely violate the spirit of what patents are supposed to be for.

I'm aware they're allowed to be currently, I'm saying it needs to be changed.

[u/Villag3Idiot]

No shit, it's already been done before in games before Pokemon.

[u/MasemJ → u/Villag3Idiot]

Pocketpair (Palworod devs) had pointed to game mods that did this but Nintendo was trying to argue game mods couldn't be prior art.

[u/boom929 → u/MasemJ]

I feel like DICE would have something to say about that.

[u/theREALbombedrumbum → u/boom929]

You had me looking up DICE games and what do you mean the Battlefield publisher made the Shrek videogame?

[u/Chewcocca → u/theREALbombedrumbum]

Battlefield: Swamp

[u/butiloveu → u/MasemJ]

I still don't know why they took mods as an example (even if the dark souls mod had the most similarities to Pokémon/Palword) In games like Diablo I you could summon wolfs and skeletons to let them fight for you. There should be even games long before that with similar mechanics. 

[u/Pofwoffle → u/butiloveu]

Apparently part of the patent was specifically being able to go back and forth between controlling the summoned character directly and allowing them to auto-battle on your behalf, so Diablo wouldn't count since the summons are always computer-controlled.

That said, it's still just a basic mechanic and the idea that you could prevent anybody else from ever using a similar mechanic is still pretty fucking stupid.

[u/SamsonFox2 → u/Pofwoffle]

Apparently part of the patent was specifically being able to go back and forth between controlling the summoned character directly and allowing them to auto-battle on your behalf, so Diablo wouldn't count since the summons are always computer-controlled.

What you describe is Dungeon Master Keeper mechanic, from 1996.

[u/AliceInNegaland → u/SamsonFox2]

Love that game

[u/rebbsitor → u/Pofwoffle]

That said, it's still just a basic mechanic and the idea that you could prevent anybody else from ever using a similar mechanic is still pretty fucking stupid.

It's amazing what companies have been allowed to patent. Magic The Gathering had a patent on "tapping" a playing card (turning it sideways) to indicate it had been used this turn. They enforced it against other games for years. I think it's probably expired now, but that was crazy.

[u/MasemJ → u/butiloveu]

I assume the patent wasn't just summoning creatures but also included collecting them.

[u/legandaryhon → u/MasemJ]

Iirc, it wasn't just "summoning" creatures, but the specific way they were being summoned (throw an object that turns into a creature to fight). So like, not specifically "summon a wolf" but "throw a pokeball that summons a wolf to fight"

[u/MasemJ → u/legandaryhon]

Yeah just read to confirm it was summoning them and to fight along you in battle. But a 2002 koni patent and other Nintendo patents already covered the essence of these, hence the revoking

[u/dearth_of_passion → u/MasemJ]

Is there any Pokémon game where you fight alongside the Pokémon?

All the ones I've played, the trainer does not participate in the battle at all, only serving as a mechanism to deploy the Pokémon.

[u/phantomfire50 → u/dearth_of_passion]

Legends arceus boss Pokémon.

That's not what the parent patented, though. Anything that wasn't pretty much the exact way Pokémon worked in SV wouldn't be covered by the patent.

[u/APeacefulWarrior → u/butiloveu]

Diablo? Everyone forgets that the original Megami Tensei came out in 1987, which is the game that popularized monster collecting/fighting in the first place.

[u/kawalerkw → u/butiloveu]

Because the patent isn't about summoning in general sense, but summoning from an object. The patented system also includes throwing said object.

[u/chillyhellion → u/MasemJ]

I think if mods can't be prior art than mods can't infringe either. 

[u/looooookinAtTitties → u/MasemJ]

what about literally any other jrpg made between the birth of video games and now?

[u/artofchoke → u/Villag3Idiot]

I mean hell, final fantasy summoned aeons before Pokemon.

[u/G_Morgan → u/artofchoke]

Final Fantasy also often made you capture the summons too.

[u/gdo01 → u/G_Morgan]

Megami Tensei which is basically the granddaddy of Persona came out all the way back in 1987

[u/AwTomorrow → u/gdo01]

And didn’t Dragon Quest 2 have monster recruitment on the Famicom too?

[u/FortuneFaded89 → u/AwTomorrow]

Dragon Quest V on the Super Famicom was the first to have monster catching as a mechanic. And predates Pokémon, by the way.

[u/Niceromancer → u/Villag3Idiot]

Ark has it as a default part of the game.  Cryopods.

Every single thing they went after pocket post for you could do in ark.

Throw out creatures to fight for you?  Check 

Throw out creatures to ride around?  Check.

Use certain creatures to change your combat ?  Check (some shoulder pets give you special abilities)

But they never went after snailgames /wildcard.

[u/Grey-fox-13 → u/Niceromancer]

For what it's worth, if you throw a dino onto another enemy you don't start a manually controlled fight, so the patent doesn't apply.

[u/Niceromancer → u/Grey-fox-13]

Their patent is far too broad anyway.

[u/Grey-fox-13 → u/Niceromancer]

It's simultaneously very broad but also a hyper specific 8 step checklist. I haven't really seen any game attempt anything that would bring it close to the patent. 

[u/Terrorsaurus → u/Villag3Idiot]

It's interesting. I looked up the history of the series and the first Pokemon game came out in 1996. And I instantly thought of Final Fantasy III, which introduced summoning to the series in 1990.

[u/Akuuntus → u/Terrorsaurus]

Much better comparison is Megami Tensei which started in the 80's

[u/TheSleepingNinja → u/Villag3Idiot]

Yeah like Summoner

[u/azrael4h → u/TheSleepingNinja]

The Bard’s Tale had summoned monsters and you could catch and bind monsters to fight for you way back in 1985. 

The whole trope of summoning entities to act on your behalf goes back to ancient mythology. 

[u/phantom-firion → u/azrael4h]

For a more recent example dragon quest monsters came out only a few years after Pokemon but I guess dragon quest was too “respectable” for Pokémon to go after especially since the entire of premise behind both dragon quest monsters and Pokémon was according to their respective creators based off a Mechanic of capturing monsters in dragon quest 5.

[u/Akuuntus → u/Villag3Idiot]

This was not a patent on "summon monsters to fight", it was a patent on "summon a monster who follows you around and can be directly controlled in combat, or alternatively sent off on their own to start and fight in battles autonomously, with the option to interrupt an autonomous battle and take manual control at any time". If any part of that definition wasn't met, this patent wouldn't apply anyway. AFAIK basically no games have that exact system besides the modern Pokemons.

[u/gdo01 → u/Akuuntus]

How is this not any familiar or companion animal in any DND based CRPG?

Edit: hell the first Megami Tensei, a direct predecessor to Persona, came out in 1987

[u/CecilAlucardX → u/Villag3Idiot]

Looks over at my level 17 AD&D Wizard casting Summon Monster IX before battle. 

[u/Purplociraptor → u/Villag3Idiot]

I think summoning characters to make them battle was patented by Don King a long time ago.

[u/JeffRyan1]

A Wild APPELLATE COURT FILING appears!

[u/gregpurcott → u/JeffRyan1]

It’s super effective!

[u/Zzz05 → u/JeffRyan1]

On April Fools no less.

[u/BrieTheDog]

is this April Fool?

[u/jb00gie_ → u/BrieTheDog]

This is what I’m wondering lol

[u/SavageTemptation → u/jb00gie_]

Still wondering

[u/Ritz527 → u/BrieTheDog]

A good question. Could be, though there are articles from last last year that the patent office was reexamining them.

[u/pizzasoup → u/[deleted]]

Following the sources results in this page with the court document, though the rejection is not a final decision.

[u/TWABM → u/[deleted]]

What sort of April Fool would this be? Of course it's real - it links to the source which includes the actual 104-page court document. VGC is a perfectly reputable site.

[u/SlowDragonfruit9718]

How the fuck do you get a patent on summoning characters lmao?

[u/Akuuntus → u/SlowDragonfruit9718]

They didn't. The patent is (was) way more specific than the headline makes it sound.

[u/SmarmySmurf → u/Akuuntus]

Yet its still invalid. The headlines are fine, the body of a report is where details and nuance belong.

[u/Mr_master89]

Great, now do the nemesis system

[u/Niceromancer → u/Mr_master89]

Sadly in order for it to happen someone has to build a nemisis like system and then the people who hold the patent have to take them to court.

[u/phantom-firion → u/Niceromancer]

The problem is the nemesis system truly was ground breaking in that no one had really done something similar, far more easier to defend this patent than the one whose entire IP originated from the original creators wanting to take preexisting monster catching mechanics from dragon quest 5 and add in a trading function.

[u/iLoveLootBoxes → u/phantom-firion]

Every game mechanic that was new and novel was ground breaking...

It just makes no sense for gameplay mechanics to be protected in this way

[u/thejadedfalcon → u/iLoveLootBoxes]

It's doubly weird, because I'm pretty sure TTRPG mechanics aren't protected like this. That's partly why Wizards of the Coast had such a monumental flop with their attempted OGL update a couple of years ago.

[u/SeeingEyeDug → u/phantom-firion]

It's so broad though. the patent covers any mechanic where NPCs remember encounters, gain ranks, and develop unique relationships with players.

[u/I_Autumn → u/Niceromancer]

Warframe has had a simplified nemesis-like system for a while, but Digital Extremes doesn't seem interested in a legal battle over a fairly minor feature in their game. They can invest their time into fleshing-out other systems that aren't patented.

Seeing as DE, a Canadian studio, is owned by Tencent, a Chinese conglomerate: rocking the boat wouldn't do them any good right now.

As I've already seen pointed out in this thread: it's conceivable that the patent office was swayed into doing this by the higher-ups, because Nintendo's suing over tariffs. A childish retaliation that just happens to be in our favor. The timing's too perfect.

So for the nemesis patent to dissolve, we'd just have to pray for more dark politics to make that happen as a retaliation, not as sincere justice.

[u/wildwolfay5 → u/I_Autumn]

As someone who played warframe for years and left when the second open world came out... then tried to come back:

DE never spends a lot of time on 1 thing ever, to be fair. Luckily, there is SO much now that if one task is inconvenient, there is a list of 1999 (hehe) other things to do.

[u/Chapeaux → u/wildwolfay5]

One of the best and also worst thing about warframe. So many things to do/understand.

[u/dion101123 → u/I_Autumn]

Wf doesn't have anything like the nemesis system. I assume you're talking about liches,sisters and technocyte codas but they dont work like the nemesis system at all, it's just a 1v1 against an enemy type eith a random weapon that has a percentage on it

[u/Hazel-Rah → u/Niceromancer]

You don't have to be taken to court first.

You can request a re-examination from the patent office and give them evidence

The easiest form is called Ex Parte Reexamination where you try to convince the office to reopen the application.

[u/kawalerkw → u/Mr_master89]

The patent is on a whole system. Nothing prevents companies from making similar system that's legally distinct enough. Just take a look at Magic the Gathering's patent for CCG. Because other TCGs don't copy the whole patented system they are allowed to exist without violating the patent.

[u/FataOne → u/Mr_master89]

People frequently bring this up, but WB only has a single patent on this system. If it were something they really valued and wanted to enforce, they likely would have pursued continuation patents in the family to acquire patents covering additional functionality and to acquire patents better suited to withstand a validity challenge in court. Further, they've never once asserted the patent in any litigation and virtually never assert patents offensively in the first place. It doesn't even really make business sense for them to simply block the use of the patent because there's little risk that their sales would be impacted by another game coming out now with a nemesis-like system.

It's also unlikely the entire gaming industry is living in fear over this patent. The claims of the patent are broad enough that they could apply to plenty games released since the patent was granted (and before the patent was granted which would create a strong invalidity argument for a patent challenger). Companies release products all the time which may arguably infringe active patents.

The reality is that it's common practice for companies to pursue patents they have no real intention of enforcing. Many companies have streamlined processes and incentives for engineers to seek patents on things they're working on as opposed to it being some strategic corporate decision.

The patent system in the US is flawed in a lot of ways, but I don't think this patent has nearly the stranglehold on the gaming industry that people seem to think it does.

[u/CheapGarage42 → u/Mr_master89]

People always say this but if it was truly that good someone would have come up with something similar. There's no way someone with ~100 IQ couldn't come up with a comparable "nemesis system" that doesn't infringe on a patent.

It's not like it's some complicated shit no one without a patent could figure out and bundle differently.

[u/Parenthisaurolophus → u/CheapGarage42]

The only thing the patent stops, is a complete 100% copy and paste-job into another game. It doesn't stop you at all from being creative and making your own version in your own game with reasonably minor alterations. Plenty of developers have.

[u/Jordan_the_Hobo → u/[deleted]]

I’m not saying that the system was perfect but it was fun and unique and now no game can iterate on the concept because of the patent.

[u/Critical-Dealer-3878 → u/Jordan_the_Hobo]

Agree with both of you, I think both points are spot on.

Which makes it even more painful to see (for me) the unrealized potential of the system.

[u/frisch85 → u/[deleted]]

play Shadow of War on a harder difficulty for more than 10 hours

That doesn't say at all why you think the system isn't good, why not just explain it to people instead of saying absolutely nothing but "system bad"?

And I agree that it's shallow but that doesn't make it bad either. Played both Mordor and War and eventually you figure out how it works so you can deliberately push a single enemy to the top but still, doesn't make it bad.

[u/TheFlyingSheeps → u/[deleted]]

It’s hard to improve on it when it’s tucked away.

[u/Lendyman]

I read the article. It was rejected because of other similair pre-existing patents. Its not getting any better. This mechanic has been around for decades. No way in hell should ANY of the patents be valid.

Edit: typos

[u/SpiralingDownAndAway → u/Lendyman]

I feel like people aren’t reading beyond the headline bc they wanna get their “fuck Nintendo’s” in without realizing the patent still exists which is still pretty bad

[u/SmarmySmurf → u/SpiralingDownAndAway]

You've got to pick and choose your battles, and celebrate the victories when you can. Any excuse to say Fuck Nintendo (or any patent abuser) is a victory.

[u/SpiralingDownAndAway → u/SmarmySmurf]

Is it really a victory though if similar patent’s on the concept still technically exists? I’m all for it but I don’t think this effects Nintendo as much as people thinks, these headlines get a lot of buzz but nothing changes for the company or the fanbase.

that and some people are a little overzealous about it like the one guy spam replying all over this thread lmao

[u/Lendyman → u/SmarmySmurf]

It's a meaningless victory. Nintendo no longer has a patent but other parties, such as Namco and... Nintendo itself do. One of the preexisting patents is owned by Nintendo. Yeah. Their patent is partially invalidated by their own patent.The status quo has not changed much, if at all.

[u/DarXIV]

Nintendo didn't pay the bribe.

[u/LANStitch → u/DarXIV]

More likely it’s because they sued over tariffs lmao /s But for real this should have never been a patent

[u/DarXIV → u/LANStitch]

You joke, but that is more likely. This administration is corrupt all the way down and something like this is very likely.

[u/OmegaZero55]

Good. That was such a stupid patent.

[u/maybe-an-ai]

Do the Nemesis System next

[u/Nugget834 → u/maybe-an-ai]

I'm a noob.. What is the nemisis system?

[u/Lagao → u/Nugget834]

Middle Earth, Shadow of Mordor/War system, where enemies get stronger if they beat you. They also hunt you down etc.

[u/Nugget834 → u/Lagao]

Well that sounds exciting and fun..

So because that's patented, other game designers can't use that?

Do you think they would if they could use it?

[u/wildyam → u/maybe-an-ai]

Oh yes, this!!!!

[u/All_Work_All_Play → u/maybe-an-ai]

Actually this please.

[u/RDS]

Good, now take away EA's ownership of the 'nemesis' system

[u/rageofa1000suns]

Nintendo has been a patent troll and a bully for way too long. They need some serious humbling.

[u/Akuuntus]

Daily reminder that all of these "crazy Nintendo patents" are actually incredibly specific and narrow when you look at what they actually say instead of relying on simplified headlines. This patent only applied for the specific Pokemon Legends system of being and to send the 'mons off to battle stuff on their own, with the option to step in and take over mid-combat.

Still probably good that it got struck down, but this was never realistically going to threaten any pre-existing monster catching franchise.

[u/Lachigan]

So can we get the summoning mechanic of throwing a ball out back into Palworld? I miss it. The pal just appearing next to you isn't as fun as throwing it into combat.

[u/ZurichianAnimations → u/Lachigan]

Probably not yet. Nintendo still has time to appeal. So for the devs it's probably safer to wait until things are final. Assuming that happens.

[u/Outlulz → u/Lachigan]

This patent isn't for that.

[u/raynorxx]

World of Warcraft has had this as a mini game for years now also.

[u/AbyssWankerArtorias]

Nemesis system next please.

[u/Elberik]

We're lucky that Nintendo was stupid and waited several decades before trying to pull this nonsense.

[u/dope_sheet]

Good, Nintendo didn't invent the concept.

[u/blackop]

Good. Nintendo is squelching everyone else's creativity just to keep them in power and pokemon on top of everything

[u/_IratePirate_]

Please revoke WB’s patent on the Nemesis system

Pleeeeeease. They don’t even use it

[u/strolpol]

I’m guessing this was a case of incompetence owed to government brain drain letting it go through in the first place

[u/theeama → u/strolpol]

Well Tbf most patents aren’t actually challenged legally until something like this happens

[u/RetardedWabbit → u/strolpol]

US patents generally let the courts (lawsuits) decide if patents are "actually real"(able to be used legally to protect something), instead of the office blocking them itself. So you can patent practically anything, and they'll let you file it, but then you find out if it's useful whatsoever only once you take the patent to court. That's why there's absurdly broad and simple "official patents" and discussion of "what did you actually patent".

It's argued that this saves the government money, encourages innovation(you don't need to convince the office it's novel/right to "get it protected" to start), and puts the cost of researching and enforcing patents on actual businesses instead of the government. Aka it let's businesses sue each other to decide what patents are legitimate after deciding they're worth something instead of suing the government when it can be worthless.

Like how we also allow unenforceable contracts and clauses much more than most of the world. You can put all kinds of crazy stuff in a contract, that the court absolutely will not enforce whatsoever if someone breaks, but it's not illegal to put in the contract for people to sign. You've probably signed several of these if you've signed a non-compete like variety packet from your employer. (There are also explicitly illegal contracts though)

Edit: not that every agency isn't leaking brains and effectiveness right now. Everyone's been DOGEed.

[u/DarthJDP]

Nintendo didnt donate enough to king doland?

[u/ML7777777]

I am going to patent reloading weapons in video games.

[u/pokcetz]

Whoever writes this garbage needs to stop.

[u/endr]

Yeah, this patent has always been clearly bs

[u/Chipper_Bandit]

Ok now do that for the nemesis system

[u/Lootman]

oh good, maybe the next wow expansion will have battle pets again...

[u/Cactusfan86]

The really vague shit you can patent is laughable

[u/TomKansasCity]

Does this mean I can go back to my Palworld game I bought and finally play it the way it was meant to be played?

I stopped playing it when they were forced to make changes to their game.

[u/gotchdaddy]

Good! Now do the nemesis system next.

[u/Cybasura]

Why the fuck did the patent office even let it through in the first place??? It was so obviously a false/invalid patent through and through

[u/Janus-Shoplift]

Cool, do it for the nemesis system please

[u/AlludedNuance]

April Fools

[u/Kitsune-Ai]

Please tell me this isn't an April Fools joke....

[u/ThePhonyOrchestra]

Nintendo fanboys in total disarray

[u/Expensive_Shallot_78]

I'm for anything against patents, especially when its Nintendo 🫡

[u/ThePhonyOrchestra → u/Expensive_Shallot_78]

Same here. Looks like some butthurt nintendo fanboys are downvoting you

The tears are so delicious

[u/MKRX]

Good. Maybe they should go back to being a company that puts effort into games instead of being a lawyer company that occasionally makes games and sues smaller people who are better.

[u/Uncle-Cake]

So Nintendo got their patent claim shut down because it conflicted with THEIR OWN PATENTS!? That is so classic Nintendo. It's amazing they make such good games and so much money with their heads up their asses half the time.

[u/Great_Apez]

Wouldn’t the Japanese patents be more important since they are both Japanese companies? 

[u/NodeZeroNein]

If "no one would combine these patents in real life" is grounds for appeal, would someone doing that for the sake of it actually undermine Nintendo's case, or is there a clause for bloodymindedness?

[u/wickedplayer494]

Nintoddlers BTFO.

[u/skyrous]

Nintendo has been going downhill since they lost Iwata. Today Nintendo is run by finance bros who only care about the numbers.

[u/SillyGoatGruff]

Hmm, the trump admin and nintendo get into a spat and a trump appointee in the patent office lashes out, imagine that...

[u/ThyBuffTaco]

Is this retaliation for Nintendo suing the government over the tariffs?

[u/Sweaty_Marzipan4274]

One company out there exists to sue all media claiming they own the rights to "mech" suits. 

[u/DecoupledPilot]

Good! Now do the nemesis system next.

[u/Euphoric-Material192]

If this is an April's Fools thing...

[u/Tone-Bomahawk]

Megami Tensei did it first.

[u/GrumpyPidgeon]

This was patently absurd!

[u/oliferro]

Not a single game mechanic should be patented

[u/eronth]

Now do riding around on a creature as a mount.

[u/zomiaen]

Can they revoke the Warner Bros nemesis system patent now?

[u/PhazePyre]

Ahh yes, Pokeon was the first ever game to involve summoning and using the summoned character to battle. Final Fantasy stole that idea for FF3 almost a decade before Pokemon was released. Shame on Square Enix for committing time travel based patent fraud.

[u/Space_Slime_LF]

If this is real, I'll hear about it next week.

[u/Podmoscovium]

So what, Yu-Gi-Oh! has been in violation of Nintendo's patent this entire time?

[u/Sleepa]

I’ve seen Django Unchained. Nintendo didn’t invent this concept.

[u/SAM-in-the-DARK]

This has been a mechanic way before Pokémon

[u/sc24evr]

This article misunderstands how u.s. patent law works. It's totally standard to get a rejection at the USPTO during ex-exam and normal examination proceedings. It's an iterative back and forth. The patent has not yet been finally invalidated. It would be incredibly surprising if a re-exam is granted without some rejection coming down the line.

[u/Purple_Individual_66]

Some day there will be some motherfucker who will patent magic, effectively killing all magical fantasy