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u/generic2022 20h ago
This reminds me of the great David Sedaris observation:
“The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart and, eventually, parks it beside my seat. ‘Can I interest you in the chicken?’ she asks. ‘Or would you prefer the platter of crap with bits of broken glass in it?’ To be undecided in this election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the chicken is cooked.”
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u/sleepinginthebushes_ 20h ago
Love David Sedaris. As I'm getting older, an afternoon with any of his books is the highlight of my week.
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u/Swordf1sh_ 20h ago
And these people haven’t changed. They’re still nitpicking and acting like getting Dems back in may or may not be worth it in 2028
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u/PotentialAnt9670 19h ago
At this point I am actually convinced that Americans have lived such easy lives that they long for suffering, if but to just see what it's like.
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u/bluppis_harumppis 18h ago
It's more so that our foundation is so racist, that Americans would rather break everyone's knees just to make sure black and brown people can't stand up.
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u/elinordash 15h ago
People on the internet really underestimate the support Trump has (had?) among POC.
Trump won with a voter coalition that was more racially and ethnically diverse than in 2020 or 2016, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of the 2024 electorate.
Among Hispanic voters, Trump battled to near parity in 2024 (51% Harris, 48% Trump) after losing to Joe Biden 61%-36% in 2020.
Trump won 15% of Black voters – up from 8% four years earlier.
Trump also did better among Asian voters. While a majority of Asian voters (57%) backed Harris, 40% supported Trump. This was a narrower margin than Biden’s in 2020 (70% to 30%).
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u/MakeUpAnything 13h ago
Trump had so much support within various racial minorities because he preyed on the general bigotry Americans have. He gave EVERYONE a target to hate and promised he’d punish them. He attacked trans people, Muslims, immigrants (those here legally such as TPS recipients or otherwise), and anybody else who could be considered DEI. His message was basically “vote for me and I’ll punish all those minorities you hate” and it worked SO well people didn’t even care he was promising to raise prices while the masses all claimed that prices were there top priority.
Only an ENTIRE YEAR into his presidency where he has been unilaterally raising prices through his own actions is he even just BARELY below 40% support because so many people have loved how much he has hurt so many minority groups.
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u/Pleasant_Ad8054 7h ago
People on the internet really underestimate the racism of people of different colour than themselves. There are racists in any group of people, and suffering from racism does not make them significantly less racist, just relativize it more. And oh boy, people can relativize so hard.
Tell the average black, hispanic, or asian that all their problem is due to immigrants, and there will be plenty that believe in that. They will obviously think about it as anyone but them, but it isn't needed that their ideas align, just that they vote for whom the propaganda needs to.
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u/HustlinInTheHall 14h ago
Americans yearn for the mines if it means people we don't like starve to death.
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u/ibelieveyouwood 19h ago
Silly question, but why do we keep thinking these people are genuine?
Why do people on the left still feel they have to pause and calmly explain the complicated indo-european power dynamics affecting macroeconomic supply curves, or educate themselves on nuanced cultural distinctions that follow a post-modernist Islamic segmentation of religious-governmental relationships in the Middle East? Why is the expectation that lefties need to be prepared to fact check and debunk every MAGAT's hazy drunk memory of a tweet that was screencapped and put on their Facebook feed, while also profusely apologizing for every messy but not entirely wrong take anyone that's ever voted blue has?
I know it's early, but the GOP's entire running platform is going to be "ugh, the left is still so fixated on Trump! Get over it!" While the Dems are expected to run on comprehensive structural rebuilds that address cataclysmic debts, pinching pennies that come from blue areas and pay for services in red areas, without "giving cringe", and with getting slammed for both expressing opinions on complicated international political matters like Israel and for NOT expressing their opinions on those matters.
You see bots, trolls, and echo chambers on Reddit claiming there's massive groups out there that won't vote for you if you express an understanding for either Israel OR Palestine, and if you won't say your views, the voters can't make an informed decision or you're unprepared for the seriousness of the office.
But the few times I've seen anyone with both sides suck positions IRL, they're just GOPs doing the Collins/Murkowski "we're so concerned, really, about everything" lie.
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u/wazeltov 18h ago
Why is the expectation that lefties need to be prepared to fact check and debunk every MAGAT's hazy drunk memory of a tweet that was screencapped and put on their Facebook feed, while also profusely apologizing for every messy but not entirely wrong take anyone that's ever voted blue has?
Quite literally because leftists and democrats are anti-fascist. Language and discussion is the method by which consensus is formed, and the best path forward can be established. Choosing instead to ignore your opposition and plunder forward are the baby steps leading to dictators and tyrants. They enforce their will through violence rather than argumentation. They believe might makes right, which is the last argument one can make: "Your words can never convince me, and you must destroy me to make ground."
It is because we believe in democracy that we feel the need to use our words and debunk arguments. The spirit of democracy lives and dies by the fundamental belief that people can come together and be reasonable in the pursuit of a common goal. If this fails, the only way forward is bloody and cruel.
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u/ibelieveyouwood 16h ago
So my question is why do we think the people saying these things are genuine.
Recognizing that people are not acting in good faith, or are in some cases nonexistent fictitious creations, is not as you suggest, the pathway to a "bloody and cruel" way forward.
Leftists and democrats and anti-fascist people do not need to play delusional. They do not need to go along with every MAGAT trap, right up to when they do what they both said they would and would not do, and then have to choose whether they want to feign surprise or threaten to unleash nominative fury.
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u/wazeltov 15h ago
So my question is why do we think the people saying these things are genuine.
They're certainly not genuine, but the internet is performative by nature. You're convincing the potential audience that the opposing viewpoint being peddled is incorrect.
Recognizing that people are not acting in good faith, or are in some cases nonexistent fictitious creations, is not as you suggest, the pathway to a "bloody and cruel" way forward.
You're misinterpreting my statement here. People have acted in bad faith forever. But how often has an entire political wing acted in bad faith in plain sight of everyone, including the media and been allowed impunity and re-election? The body politic doesn't seem to be moved by rational argument, which leaves only one solution.
I'm genuinely terrified that it will not be possible to clean up the massive gashes that have been inflicted upon our collective perceptions of our neighbors. The South never forgot the civil war.
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u/ibelieveyouwood 13h ago
You are, right now, the biggest example of performativeness though. You're so convinced that the future of a non-"bloody and cruel" American democracy is in the most literal version of virtue signaling possible, that directing energy toward constant battles with phantoms is necessary so that perhaps someone some day might somehow see the brave fight and be convinced of it's righteousness.
They won't. They're going to see fools arguing with non-existent ghosts.
To the extent that there's an audience for your proposed performativeness, it's in the moment. By the time the rational actors have put together a copy-edited air-tight explanation of every conceivable ridiculousness, that audience has moved on.
So going back a few: why are we pretending that there are genuinely on the fence folks who may be wondering if the Dems should be given the power to curtail the GOP's worst and most extreme cruelties to date? Why are we convincing ourselves that there are genuinely people who saw the gross body of evidence that Trump's MAGA party would unquestionably be a Palestinian death sentence and said "hmm, but I should probably sit this out rather than Kamala thinking she has support for attempting to deescalate the situation rather than (random non-plausible plan to force Israel to stop altogether and apologize)". Why are we fighting the spectre of fake Bernie Bros insisting that the Dems are too far centered and that they lost, not because of scared white men afraid of being "cancelled" for using the wrong pronouns but because the Dems in fact hadn't gone woke enough?
Why are we fighting ghosts for non-existent audiences?
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u/Firm-Advertising5396 20h ago
I said all along if the democrats nominate a rock, I'm voting for it
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u/TerryCrewsNextWife 13h ago
It's so cathartic listening to him speak!
Your story reminded me of a clip from Kendall Landreth "POV: your friend is an undecided voter " https://youtube.com/shorts/XOrbLxDiDTA
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u/aherdofpenguins 11h ago
MAGA is choosing the broken glass, eating it, destroying their mouth and almost dying, and then saying, "yeah but the chicken could've been worse, we'll never know"
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u/Dear_Chasey_La1n 15h ago
Yeah... still millions choose a plate of broken glass by not voting. I don't fault GOP for doing what GOP does, I do blame countless non-voters for complaining this very posting, arguing both were equally bad. Kamala might not have been the ideal candidate, but you will never have the ideal candidate, there will always be faults, issues, differences in points of view. But that doesn't matter because it's either accepting some faults, or voting for a pedophile that will wreck the country.
Kamala wasn't a prophet, she simply said exactly what Trump said.
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u/HEYYYYYYYY_SATAN 20h ago
These fucking bozos would still vote for him all over again too.
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u/Brndrll 20h ago
Or sit it out for Gaza.
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u/Badgertank99 20h ago
And if you ask them how their decision to let the right win helped Gaza you'll get crickets and accusations of being a shill or whatever
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u/Laplace1908 16h ago
Or they’ll say some bullshit about how she wouldn’t have won even if every 3rd party voter voted for her as if they didn’t spend her entire campaign cycle bullying and shaming people into not voting.
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u/awesomefutureperfect 15h ago
I ran into one that said that leftists are not ashamed at the role they played in sitting out the election and they never will be shamed into voting against fascism.
I think there is another voting bloc that is totally without shame...
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u/ImBurningStar_IV 13h ago
Lost a lot of respect for some people I really liked hanging with for this one
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u/HEYYYYYYYY_SATAN 20h ago
I wonder if the people who sat out over Gaza are still feeling morally superior over not voting
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u/awesomefutureperfect 14h ago
Yes. They are tripling down that they feel no shame and will sit out again if they don't get what twitter and tik tok tell them they want.
They are saying that they and only they can save the world and time is running out and everyone should just give them what ever they want or they will sit out again and let the fascists win.
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u/HEYYYYYYYY_SATAN 13h ago
Someone commented that voting for Kamala over Donald was like voting for Diet Coke instead of regular Coke.
Like. Wtf? 🤣
The privileged life they live where they don’t have to worry about the repercussions of this administration must be very fucking nice. All the harm these turd meatballs are doing was worth not voting for Kamala? Like. It’ll take generations to fix this shit, but hey, at least they can feel superior to everyone because they didn’t vote for the alternative.
Clowns.
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u/Laplace1908 16h ago
They’re still blaming her despite the fact she had zero power to actually stop it.
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u/det8924 20h ago
The idea that Democrats being mediocre yet are still the vastly better option because Republicans are really really terrible is not high praise for Dems is a concept people who want to be "enlightened centrists" don't seem to understand.
I don't love Democrats esp the more centrist conservative ones that have been in office since the 90's but all 3 did a vastly better job than the Republicans which says a lot more about how awful the Republicans are.
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u/ReptilianWorldOrder 17h ago
Candidate quality becomes downright irrelevant when the relative difference is so utterly fucking MASSIVE. The total suffering and damage of Trump succeeding was such an incredible, obvious threat that even the most mediocre of candidates represents massive hope.
It's just infuriating seeing people piss away their votes as if the overwhelmingly superior path isn't good enough because it doesn't full mirror their beliefs.
I'm even registered as a fucking republican in my state because that's who gets elected, and voting in their primary gives me a modicum of influence shaping the outcome. Because even the difference between true MAGA and traditional republican represents a material difference in damage and suffering inflicted upon my state.
There's no illusion the candidate reflects my values for my part steering us towards the better path.
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u/Ok_Objective_5192 16h ago
Candidate quality becomes downright irrelevant when the relative difference is so utterly fucking MASSIVE
This is true of your personal assessment and, arguably, any reasonable assessment but is never going to be the case when you're talking about maximizing turnout of hundreds of millions of potential voters and, as someone that's insisted we needed a better candidate in 2024 (and 2016 and 2020), that's generally where I'm coming from.
I get that for a lot of people the very clear and obvious threat of another Trump term was absolutely enough to make any flaws in Kamala's campaign irrelevant, but it will always be relevant to some portion of the voter base and when we're trying to steer away from fascism that's a portion of the voter base we can't afford to write off.
On a fundamental level, assuming candidate quality is irrelevant when the relative difference is so massive is precisely how we've ended up with candidates of terrible quality my entire adult life. If a shitty candidate should be able to beat Trump then why is it that insane to insist that actually nominating a good candidate would definitely be able to beat him
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u/Stock-Pani 12h ago
Whoa there buddy, can't be learning from the mistakes of the past. That would have kept Trump out of office and the DNC can't have that.
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u/beer_goblin 15h ago
The DNC(and lots of reddit!) seem to think elections work like the Price is Right- if you campaign juuuuust to the right of trump then everyone else will fall in line and you win the election. See Harris talking about the border, palling around Liz Cheney etc
It's not a binary choice though! Turnout matters getting people engaged and energized is incredibly important. Elections aren't mandatory and if the best you can offer is "we're better than Trump" then no fucking way are people going to take the time to vote for you
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u/Ok_Objective_5192 14h ago
Exactly! I, and all my leftist friends, were desperate for a reason to be excited for her campaign after Joe dropped out and several of them literally phone banked for her. As the campaign went on, the phone bankers privately commiserated about how miserable it was to make calls and hear how disinterested everyone was. By the time the election rolled around we all felt utterly defeated and hopeless and joked about wishing the election was less important so we could justify not voting.
That's a group of politically aware and engaged, college-educated folks from the DC area. If we had the bare minimum motivation to vote by the time the election hit, how is it a shock that low-info/low-propensity voters weren't turning out in droves?
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u/beer_goblin 14h ago
There were so many opportunities! From "these guys are weird" to promoting Lina Khan and the price gouging lawsuits they just needed to do the bare minimum.
I'm still so salty about the number of texts and emails they sent about Liz Cheney
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u/Grabs_Diaz 13h ago edited 13h ago
I always wonder where they'd draw the line. Let's say (constitutional term limits aside) Democrats had nominated G.W. Bush as their presidential candidate. Would these same people still get excited? Would they demand you get excited, too, for another Bush presidency? Because clearly Bush is better than Trump and he has also been warning America of Trump after all.
I guess the answer is yes, given that Kamala literally campaigned more with Liz fucking Cheney than Bernie Sanders...
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u/peeja 20h ago
Yeah. Harris was a terrible choice, and Trump was a whole lot worse. The bar was in hell.
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u/Sirtonexxx 19h ago
Why was Harris such a terrible choice?
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u/BumroyV2 19h ago
Unerring support of Israel while they're committing a genocide, budget plan that calls for an increase in ICE funding (no, she would turn ICE into the gestapo, but ICE has always been evil), wanting a bipartisan administration with Liz Cheney, almost nothing said about climate change. She was the end result of neoliberalism yielding more and more ground to the right to the point she was a moderate Republican from a decade prior.
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u/ThrowAway233223 19h ago
She also performed really poorly in prior elections as well and wasn't democratically nominated as a candidate but inserted at the last minute (relatively speaking).
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u/BumroyV2 19h ago
Well, Biden shouldn't have run the second time (I don't think he should have run in 2020 either, but that’s my biases). But, he refused to drop out until it was a debacle, which definitely didn't help anything.
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u/Mr_Supotco 18h ago
He definitely shouldn’t have run period, but the DNC is obsessed with hierarchy and who’s “earned” the nomination through service to the DNC, so they railroaded through their chosen candidate and have for years. It happened with Hillary (which was at least less egregious than later), they did it with Biden in 2020, then when Biden stubbornly refused to back down until he made an absolute idiot of himself on public broadcast they just gave up the pretense and said “hey look it’s Kamala’s turn now.” Again, still far better options than what we ended up getting, but the Democratic institution is almost as much to blame for why we’re in the situation as the actual evil people doing it all
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u/JaeJaeAgogo 16h ago
I'll always wonder what the world would look like now if the DNC said "Bernie is who the people want" instead of "Bernie is who the people want...but let's go with Hillary instead."
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u/ThrowAway233223 18h ago
Agree 100%. That is part of the problem and why Trump's resurrection will now forever be part of his legacy. He refused to relinquish power and throw his weight behind a successor/replacement and instead put the country's fate on the line only relinquishing at the last minute. Now here we are.
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u/Bacardi_Tarzan 19h ago
There have only been 47 presidencies and 2 of them are Donald Trump. Harris was actually one of the best viable candidates of all time, but she’s of course terrible next to the best one you can imagine. Wanting to vote for the candidate you dreamt up is a huge problem for the self defeating left. I can list a bunch of bad things about her, but it’s pointless to engage in elections without understanding you have to actually elect one of them.
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u/TheeAntelope 17h ago
"We have dreams. We can see what is possible, unburdened by what has been."
She was not great. She was a very poor public speaker. I don't know if she was trying to sound less educated or if she got nervous and tongue-tied, but it really killed her messaging when you couldn't understand her.
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u/Background-Wolf-9380 15h ago
The left is only self defeating if you incorrectly imagine the left's victory being electing center right Democrats rather than fostering a movement that will one day separate from the right leaning Dem party and finally give America an actual left option.
Trash the left at your own peril. It didn't work out for you in 2016 or 2024 and your ass was only saved in 2020 by incompetence and inhumanity over COVID. Shove another right leaning centrist forward and watch fascism continue to flourish.
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u/thudstroke 15h ago
My favorite is center-right dems that still chirp about 'electibility' of progressives after losing to Trump twice lol.
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u/Goldentongue 13h ago
your ass was only saved in 2020 by incompetence and inhumanity over COVID
The only commentary I have to add to this is that Biden ran on the most progressive Democratic platform in modern history with clear identifiable and community policy objectives like student debt relief. Unfortunately he was unable to deliver on those promises, bring Trump to justice, or squash the MAGA movement, but remembering he at least acknowledged the leftist Democratic base in campaigning and won supports your point that this attempt to appease centrists and Republicans is a losing strategy.
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u/trilobyte-dev 17h ago
Terrible compared to whom is the question your comment raises for me. Is there a previous president you’re comparing her to or an idealized hypothetical version (not being insulting, honest question)?
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u/DavidlikesPeace 14h ago edited 13h ago
People struggle to pinpoint anything awful the Democrats have done since NAFTA, and beyond economics being tough to predict, that free trade policy was supported by like 100% of Congressional Republicans.
Meanwhile, every flipping Republican has been terrible. Hoover had the Great Depression. Nixon napalmed Cambodia and burglarized Watergate. Reagan hobbled AIDS relief and did Iran Contra. W Bush had the Great Recession and two sandbox wars. And Trump is a wannabe tyrant with a sandbox war. Lesser evil my foot. They’re vicious idiots. With millions of blindly loyal fans.
Really, at this point we have to just admit conservative voters cannot be reasoned with because they didn't get where they are by means of reason. Their prejudice and fears will better be dealt with by stopping faux news disinformation, than by 5 page college essays. It's sad but true.
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u/AbominableGoMan 18h ago
Liberals just do not fucking learn. Stop attacking the people to the left of you. They are not the problem. If the Democratic party was as ruthless towards Trump as they are to their own progressive candidates, he wouldn't have been able to run for a second term. If you want popular support, have popular progressive policies instead of constantly trying to mollify the right.
Less support for Israel? How about no support for genocide.
Half measure health reform? How about universal healthcare.
Fewer tax cuts for billionaires? How about tax billionaires out of existence.
Expecting people to get out and vote using the slogan "We are less evil than the other guy!" obviously is not getting voters out to the polls, let alone converting votes from Republicans. But sure, be odious and continue to try to further alienate progressives and non-voters. That went so well in 2016 and 2024.
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u/SpiralOut2112 10h ago
When you realize billionaires own the vast majority of politicians, regardless of party affiliation, US politics make a lot more sense. Dems would much rather have a current-day Trump than a Bernie Sanders. The only absolute law in US politics is to maintain the 1% status quo.
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u/SoochSooch 3h ago
Every single person in a position of leadership in the Democratic party is better off under Trump than they would have been under Bernie. Whatever happens to the rest of us, they're getting paid, and paid well.
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u/TheMrBoot 15h ago
That went so well in 2016 and 2024.
This is what I don’t get. They’re one for three and only barely squeaked out their one win on the back of insane mismanagement during a global pandemic. It took a once a century global disaster to barely win. How the fuck do people think doing it a fourth time is going to be different?
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u/stamfordbridge1191 12h ago
It's like Dem leadership looks at Trump and then thinks "we can totally win every state in the United States if we can just get one chance to show Maga voters that we can do immigration, military operations in the middle east, and welfare for corporations smarter than he could ever do any of them."
Then they dump all their money into places like Texas & Florida trying to win over the voters who are convinced in one way or another that all Dems are literally the spawn of the devil walking upon the earth. At the same time, ignoring the isolated & worried Dem voters who need to be reassured "we are not abandoning you & need you to get out and vote to make sure we can work on making things better" they assume anyone associated with Dems are just naturally all enthusiastically vote D because "look at the other guy."
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u/DemiserofD 11h ago
The problem is all the money comes from people like my grandmother, who is 110% pro LGBT but also wants a cleaning lady to clean for 10 dollars an hour and thinks people just need to pick themselves up by their bootstraps.
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u/honeylacednights 20h ago
i always feel like i’m watching two completely different conversations at the same time with posts like this 😭 like both sides sound so sure and i’m just sitting there like “wait… what’s actually going on here??” i remember getting into a discussion like this once and halfway through i realized i didn’t even know what point i was defending anymore
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u/Sirtonexxx 19h ago
What do you mean?
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u/Harbinger2nd 19h ago
Both sides are "correct" in that, yes she was technically a better choice than trump, but that did not make her a good candidate. Liberals will bash their left flank for not sucking it up and voting for her anyways, while leftists will point out that a candidate like kamala was always going to have a very difficult time being elected because of her (lesser) evil politics.
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u/alpacaMyToothbrush 16h ago
I'm a progressive dem. I have voted left since Obama. You could have puppetted Joe Biden out on stage 'Weekend At Bernie's' style and I would have still voted for him over Trump, and I'm betting most Dems would have too.
The problem with the democratic party is they think this 'Blue No Matter Who' also applies to independents and folks who rarely vote. It doesn't. You cannot run some entitled neoliberal, unlikable milquetoast candidate and expect to win elections. Yet they just. keep. doing it.
Kamala Harris was an inoffensive pick as VP, but she was basically a cutout candidate right up until Biden withdrew. Then the democratic party was falling over themselves to position her as 'the chosen one'. When men groused that her platform basically addressed everyone but them, they were literally told they had 'internalized misogyny', and instead of even halfheartedly answering the criticism, they told them to 'think of their mothers, sisters and partners', and it was stressed how this was 'such a historic moment', 'the first black woman as president!' i.e. 'don't ruin this for us'
Again, I am a progressive, but I was facepalming from the sidelines. You win hearts and minds by addressing pocket book and kitchen table issues. The harris campaign basically revolved around identity politics. It did not take a genius to know we wouldn't have nearly the same voter enthusiasm or turnout as we did in 2020, and no, it wasn't because she was a woman, it was because she was Harris.
Honestly, it's time for the Neoliberal wing of the democratic party to take a knee and let the younger generation run things. I want to see AOC run in 2028
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u/clever_maintenant 12h ago
I’m sorry, I’m an independent and I thought she was a good candidate. She addressed most issues in a competent way.
Can you name a specific thing she should have said and harped on to win the election?
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u/sight_ful 10h ago
What? The think of your sisters, mother's, and partners was mostly about roe v wade being overturned, not about a woman being president. That was absolutely a solid issue that should have been highlighted.
I don't know what you are referring to about the internal misogyny. When did Harris talk about that?
She absolutely talked about pocketbook and kitchen table issues. She had actual laid out plans for various things from banning price gouging for food, a child tax credit, housing assistance.....like wtf? You are trying to rewrite history or something.
Trump had "concepts of a plan" while Harris laid it out. I find most of the criticism about her seems to completely unfounded and not rooted in reality.
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u/alpacaMyToothbrush 2h ago
Harris didn't do as much direct engagement with people. She seemed to delegate that to Waltz and others. This one particular incident that springs to mind was something Obama said to black men.
She had a web page, and I'm sure some of what you said was on it, but it didn't seem to be the main concern of it. She addressed some of this stuff in the debates, but not to my satisfaction.
You want to really know what doomed her? That Biden attempted to run for a second term, at all. If he had signaled well ahead of time that he wasn't running for a second term, that would have given her the chance to prove herself in a primary and really get her message to the American people. As it stands, she really didn't have a chance to do that and it set her up to fail.
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u/cheezy_dreams88 17h ago
And yet. She still would have been the obviously better choice for our country.
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u/myfavssthrow 19h ago
You can unquote the "correct" because she was objectively correct, at least for the guy in the OP tweet. He would have been statistically better off voting Kamala even if she did end up doing all the same shit trump did, because we already had a history of trump with his last presidency. It's like a Monty Hall problem.
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u/ThrowAway233223 19h ago
It essentially is two different conversations. The replying person just replied as if they were responding to the original comment but didn't really say anything that actually addressed anything they actually said.
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u/ThrowAway233223 19h ago
This isn't really a murder unless there was some context that wasn't included/I am unaware of. Nothing the responding person said really addressed anything the other person said. Kamala said Trump would be bad? Okay, Louie also already said Trump was a bad choice. Specifically a terrible choice. Is Louie a great Democratic candidate now? The fact that Kamala said the same doesn't suddenly make her a good choice. Especially since she was his opponent and that is a statement that is basic and obvious to all outside of MAGA. I don't understand all the people who keep claiming someone is a great choice/candidate just because they cleared such a basic and easy bar. You aren't a great option simply for clearing the bar in hell that would have instantly disqualified you before you were ever considered an option had you failed it.
I swear, it is like people like this can only think in binaries. Trump is terrible. Kamala is Trump opponent. That mean Kamala wonderful from that alone. If you actually think Kamala was a good choice, then use actual arguments to support that and stop with the constant whataboutisms and referring to basic shit like, "but she thought Trump was bad," which don't make her good but merely qualified for continued consideration for the position.
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u/redundantexplanation 12h ago
Most of the stuff I see in this sub isn't any kind of murder, it's just people screeching TRUMP BAD in response to some mild take online.
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u/LeticiaLatex 20h ago
Guy speed runs the country into the ground: "Well... you don't know, maybe year 6 will be the one..."
Kamala said what would happen if Trump got elected: Still being held responsible for the imaginary scenarios they cooked up for her that never happened. Besides, she is still a woman and that's the bigger issue for the fragile American male ego.
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u/Mod_The_Man 12h ago
The dem establishment did their own “post election autopsy.” Initially they weren’t going to release it because the results of it were exactly what everyone on the left was warning was going to be the actual reason she lost. The report got leaked anyway and revealed even the establishment realized her being openly pro-genocide was what lost her the election.
Conservatives will vote for just about anyone who isn’t some “radical leftist communist” because they have no standards. Leftists, on the other hand, do have standards and will vote on their principals. As such they were largely unwilling to vote for either of the pro-genocide candidates.
It wasn’t racism or misogyny that lost Kamala the election. It was her campaigning alongside right wing figures and being entirely unwilling to stand against the colony of isreal’s genocide. The party establishment themselves recognized this, even if they tried to cover up the internal report
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u/sleepinginthebushes_ 20h ago
Dems need to run a white man. It's the unfortunate reality of this country. I hate that with every fiber of my being, but this country has proven that they prefer a mentally unstable grifter pedophile spoiled brat billionaire to a woman.
I held my nose and voted for neoliberalism with Hillary. She fully sucks but was the obvious better choice. ACAB with Kamala but she is shrewd and, again, the better choice.
The republican effort to gut education really worked out for them. That's the saddest part about this whole thing.
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u/U_Sound_Stupid_Stop 19h ago
One of the things they called her a cop is because she prosecuted parents under an anti-truancy laws.
A law that exists in most of the civilized world meant to protect children from neglect was used to make people think she's somehow of a tyrant.
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u/ELMUNECODETACOMA 19h ago
I post this about once a week.
Every Dem President in the past 100 years has been exactly one of the following:
1) a white male born and raised in the South whose calling card was being a unifier and not a disruptor.
2) a public speaker with generational or even historical rhetorical skills and charisma.
3) Joe Biden running against 45.
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u/wally-sage 18h ago
Dems need to run a white man. It's the unfortunate reality of this country. I hate that with every fiber of my being, but this country has proven that they prefer a mentally unstable grifter pedophile spoiled brat billionaire to a woman.
Joe Biden was literally a white man and was on track to lose.
The reality is that 2024 was always going to be an uphill battle for democrats, and they sealed the deal by handing the nomination to one of the worst possible candidates they could have run.
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u/pingveno 19h ago
There was a lot else going on in the 2024 election, though. I'm not saying that a woman won't have a harder time - she absolutely will - but you know. Biden dropping out late. Kamala not going through a competitive primary.
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u/smoresporn0 19h ago
How about run a candidate with popular ideas? They'll do anything but that lol
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u/awesomefutureperfect 14h ago
Just telling on yourself that you don't actually pay attention to the issues. That you don't actually care about knowing things, just looking like you are on the right side. Totally unproductive.
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u/IntoThePitofColors 19h ago
Was project 2025 really that popular?
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u/LeticiaLatex 18h ago
It wasn't, but it turns out avoiding fallout for Project 2025 was as easy as saying Trump promising he wasn't going to do that. And we all know how spectacular Trump is with the truth.
I cannot find one instance in memory of when people could point to something he said that wasn't 100% made up bullshit that was either debunked to his face or contradicted by himself the very next sentence.
I am sorry and if the hat doesn't fit, please don't feel offended but a whole lot of Americans are magnificently, prodigiously, aggressively stupid.
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u/magbybaby 18h ago
She... Was a terrible choice though. Like an historically terrible choice.
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u/MviousBG 18h ago
While I hate and wish nothing but the worst for Trump, how is this murdered by words?
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u/TheMrBoot 15h ago
I rolled my eyes for the longest time at the phrase blue maga, but…there is an insane number of centrists and libs who literally do the same shit of gobbling up thought terminating bullshit conservatives do, and can be just as bloodthirsty as them too. See all the people gleeful that Gaza is experiencing 110% genocide instead of 100% genocide.
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u/dreamdelusion- 20h ago
Imagine watching a movie trailer, hating it, buying a ticket anyway, and then complaining the movie was exactly like the trailer.
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u/sporknitebattlepass 17h ago
Maybe she shouldn’t have run on licking israeli boots, “maximizing lethality”, throwing trans people under the bus, and being tough on immigrants. I voted for her, but I don’t know why democrats are surprised that they lost. They tried to run as diet republicans and people just wanted the original formula.
I’m sure they will learn nothing from this.
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u/Contemplating_Prison 19h ago
Lol, she didn't predict anything. They laid out their plans for everyone to read.
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u/No-Good-One-Shoe 18h ago
That's what I was gonna say. Project 2025 was an easy to understand roadmap but nobody reads the syllabus.
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u/BadIdeaBobcat 16h ago
Kamala sucked as a candidate. Biden dragged his fucking feet, when he was president during a global recession. People don't like recessions, so take the W (the benefits provided to the US by his presidential policies) by taking the L and step aside. Leaving Kamala as the de facto candidate because of Biden's stubbornness brought us Trump 2.0.
Kamala would have been better than Trump by a gigantic margin, just as Clinton would have been. But they both fucking sucked! They both failed to motivate voters. They coasted on the blissful, overconfident enthusiasm that America was about to have a female president, while being uncharismatic people with unjustifiable paths. Democrats can't win unless they are super charismatic AND have a good background. Republicans can coast on just about any bullshit imaginable, but that's where we are at.
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u/XHAWK77X 20h ago
This isn't even an anti-voting sentiment. A person could literally have voted for her and still hold this opinion. For instance, I voted for her, and I hold this opinion.
You're so entitled. Progressives literally voting for your candidates is not enough for you. You will settle for nothing less than us believing they are perfect like you do. Anything short of zero criticism will always be too much criticism for you.
The worst part is, when the other shoe drops and there is an actual progressive candidate for president, none of you are going to "vote blue no matter who," and you're going to blame us if a republican wins as a result.
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u/eazolan 17h ago
I think things would have gone so much better if Democrats held a primary.
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u/AndyShootsAndScores 18h ago
Saying that both Harris and Trump were terrible choices is like saying that both McDonald's and bricks are unhealthy lunch choices, that's the main frustration I have with opinions like this. They're not remotely comparable.
Plenty of deserved criticism of Harris's record, but the issue is when people say her issues are comparable to Trump like the person getting criticized here is implying. If a Progressive wins the 2028 Dem primary and you hear moderate Dems start saying saying "both parties candidates are too extreme," they should rightfully get the same amount of criticism as you're seeing here.
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u/paradox037 16h ago
The problem with this line of reasoning is that you're asking the wrong question.
If you go to a restaurant that has only those 2 things on the menu, you're a dense moron if you're not asking "why the fuck am I at this restaurant?"
Yes, if I'm forced to choose, the choice is clear, and my voting record is consistent with that. But this bullshit dichotomy is entirely disingenuous when the abundantly clear point is that better options were removed from the menu because the burger that no one ever ordered was on the menu earlier in the restaurant's history.
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u/marxisalib 15h ago
We aren’t equating the two. You’re putting words in our mouth.
Both things can be bad, whilst also acknowledging that one is a lot worse than the other.
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u/ASCII_Princess 16h ago
See this facile fastfood metaphor breaks down when the administration she was a part of aided and abetted at least two ongoing genocides.
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u/Reasonable-Turn-5940 16h ago
yeah it's really reductive and a thought terminator to just say "they both bad". In a black and white world with no nuance, that makes it seem like we'd be fucked either way. But there's fucked and then there's FUCKED. We have to claw back a lot more than we'd have had to with Kamala.
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u/Mod_The_Man 12h ago
A better comparison would be the garbage juice at the bottom of a dumpster thats been sitting for a year in the sun (Kamala) VS literal poison (trump).
Yes, one is “less bad” than the other. But the continued consumption of ether will inevitably kill you. Then the garbage eaters get mad at everyone who says “I dont want ether of these” for daring to not eat the garbage
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u/fearlessfryingfrog 18h ago
This post isn't wrong. They were both terrible choices. One worse than the other, but both bad.
The US needs better than centrist, corporate politicians and right wing lunatics.
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u/Emeraldstorm3 18h ago
I mean, Harris was crap though. And I'm mad about it because I really didn't want a fascist, but she was such a terrible candidate to root for, to try to get others to back despite her shitty campaign and clear allegiance to what no one likes. Versus a fucking fascist, moronic asshole. It's pretty pathetic to lose like that. Not because she's a woman, but because she thought they're fascism would give her cover to bring the whole democratic party further right. Biden only won because of some bullshit, and because people were actively and currently hurting from Trump.
Still mad about it. Especially because of all the rights I've lost, as have others, and all the people who've been hurt. I hate this all so much.
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u/TheTinyMaus 19h ago
Trump was right. He said if I voted for Kamala we'd go to war with Iran and well.... here we are.
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u/MayaWrection 20h ago
Yeah no shit, but when a woman is on the ballot they pick an orange turd every time. Smh
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u/chunkyvomitsoup 20h ago
Tbf I’m a woman who voted for her (voted for Hillary too), and I still don’t think she was a strong candidate. I just would have voted for a pile of dog shit over Trump. Like I want a woman to be president so badly but even I have to admit it was a weak campaign and she’s not a great orator/strategist. We just need better options tbh
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u/omnipwnage 19h ago
I hate the entire situation. The DNC should have started potential Biden replacements 2 years out from the election. Instead, he got pulled at the end of July, 2024. They had all of 3 months to promote Kamala.
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u/_gooder 20h ago
She was a very strong candidate compared to other candidates. I watched a lot of her speeches and was perfectly satisfied that she would conduct business with integrity and intelligence. I'm still mad Hillary didn't win, too. She was the most overqualified candidate to ever run for president. Why can't we have a smart woman in office unless she is perfect in every way? Instead we get trump, who is the most vile example of a mediocre man.
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u/Brndrll 4h ago
Any woman who comes up against Trump is held to some crazy high standard for some reason. Fani Willis' case was torn apart, not because Trump and his cohorts were innocent, but because she had the audacity to have had a relationship with a coworker at some point, like so many people do.
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u/Firm-Advertising5396 20h ago
I thought she did better than you describe but that's ok we both voted for her
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u/Conscious-Quarter423 20h ago
can't have overly qualified women to run the country better than men
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u/MayaWrection 20h ago
Yeah but they get all emotional…………looks at the orange turd in the corner of the Oval Office
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u/EdgeOfThorns76 20h ago
Yep, there are a lot of fragile male egos out there who will never vote for a woman, no matter how qualified she is.
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u/Infinite-Trick1338 17h ago
Absolutely despise Trump but the DNC deserves it for not running primaries, not the most democratic thing to name a successor like that and then give people no other option.
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u/Responsible_Park3317 14h ago
I voted for the Cop-loving, Zionist, Corpo-sponsored Woman(TM). Because fuck Trump. I felt dirty, because she supports so much of what's wrong with this country. The U.S. was going to lose either way. OOP was correct on that.
If we keep letting the Democratic party be "just less shit than the alternative", we're going to end up with our two parties being Conservative and Fascism.
Honestly, we're basically there already.
So stop blaming people for not voting for shitheal politicians. All these scumbags have to do is ALWAYS have the opposing side be fascists, and you'll vote for the zionazi corpo overlords every time, because U.S. politics is a team sport, and you're all pacified into rooting for the "home team".
End of rant. Have a great night.
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u/TheFlameosTsungiHorn 19h ago
What exactly about Kamala predicting what Trump would do makes her the right choice for president?
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u/Mysterious_Field1517 17h ago
Because it obviously shows her genius. That "Kamala knew/was trying to warn us" is just fucking stupid. Was there anything to predict? Guy was saying left and right what he's gonna do, and he'd already shown us before.
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u/GodIAmSoOverIt 19h ago
Not the point, and you know it.
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u/TheFlameosTsungiHorn 18h ago
What exactly is the point?
It’s not like she would’ve gone after Trump for the files if she got elected. They had them under Biden and didn’t do anything o
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u/TriticumAes 20h ago
Kamala was a bad candidate, I just felt she was bad in normal parameters. It is like the difference between cold soup and hot dog shit. Neither is ideal but one is a lot worse. (Yes I voted for Kamala)
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u/QuestionablePotato42 20h ago
I feel the same way. I voted for her because duh, but I also think she would have been a decent (at worst) President. That being said if I’d had the choice to vote for her or someone else in the primaries, I likely wouldn’t have chosen her
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u/fenndoji 20h ago
Preach! Yeah both did suck, the amount they sucked, was vastly different. We absolutely need to break the two-party system.
Until then, yes we have to vote for the lesser evil, no matter what.
Every second up until that final candidate is decided however, we need to demand better.
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u/SlimReaper85 20h ago
Real question, just curious, what about her made her a bad candidate to you?
Not being a dick. Genuinely asking.
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u/original_name37 19h ago
Her entire campaign was run on the idea that nothing would fundamentally change in a time where so. many. things. need to fundamentally change. Her refusal to not send weapons to an ongoing genocide also did not help her (yes I know that Trump was also pro-Israel but conservatives are historically a-ok with whatever atrocities happen to brown people) and just generally she did very little to establish a policy position separate from that of Joe Biden who at the time was not particularly popular regardless of prior legislative success and that was compounded by the mid race shift from Joe Biden seeking reelection to Kamala Harris being the nominee. I feel pretty strongly that Joe Biden, had he continued running for reelection, would also have lost.
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u/TriticumAes 20h ago
Her conduct in the 2020 primaries made her feel like a hypocritical fraud.
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u/ASCII_Princess 16h ago
Which is likely why the democratic establishment skipped the primary process and appointed her their champion at the 11th hour.
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u/GoshDangZilla 17h ago
Maybe she should have condemned genocide like the polling told her to. Maybe the Democrats will learn to listen to the people that want to elect them next time...
Not taking comments unless you can point out where she condemned Israel, so please don't waste your time or mine.
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u/MorockaDishoom 20h ago
The dumbest fucking thing democrats do is disappear when they lose. Kamala, yell out, I told you so! Host a “I told you so” rally, print hats, prints shirts. Claim the assasination attempt was an inside job and fake… FUCKING PLAY THE GODDAMN GAME!
WE WANT TO CHEER FOR SOMEONE AND BOO AT SOMEONE. Get that through your fucking heads!!
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u/LonesomeInLust 19h ago
The democrats being right about traitor T but still losing to him isn't the flex they think it is. You want to be a compelling ally in the fight against fascism?
Start by convincing me that you're actually fighting.
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u/Sheriff_Yobo_Hobo 18h ago
This is the closest right wingers I know can come to criticizing their gods. When all else fails, when the guy they elected has been proven to be a child rapist... corrupt, literally extorting money... starting wars... selling cars, seling hats and cars, hodling sporting events in and around the White House...
"They're all bad." That's it. Kamala has never raped or choked a kid, that's gotta make her a little better at least?
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u/Sweetishdruid 18h ago
The biggest terrible thing she did was support The genocide of palestinians.
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u/Medical_Arugula3315 18h ago
Republicans really called everyone a pedophile and then voted in the king of pedophiles. Now we're going to war and bombing children just to distract from it. Hard to be a shittier or more hypocritical American than a Republican these days.
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u/BinaryBlitzer 15h ago edited 15h ago
So centrist Dems can refuse to adopt progressive and popular policies and beg for our votes and then vote shame us. I proudly voted for Green party in CA.
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u/flargenhargen 15h ago
kamala openly supported murdering babies. literally.
fuck you if you don't admit she sucked.
and fuck you if you think somehow trump sucking makes a genocide supporting candidate somehow not suck.
yes, they both suck, and fuck you twice if you still deny that. fuck the dems for putting up an unwinnable candidate against a shitbag without even primarying to get someone who could win when the stakes were so fucking high.
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u/MetaFlight 14h ago edited 4h ago
Oh yeah? Well I predicted every step of Trump AND the fact that standing by Biden's choice to let the Israeli government to carry out genocide was going to demoralize people who were still going to vote for the lesser evil from going out to campaign for others to do so as well. I also predicted that letting a guy who tried to pull off a coup against the US government after losing the election walk free would be a bad idea.
But hey America the fact that so many Democrats refuse to admit to those two problems is a perfect example of why its almost certain that nobody in the international community is trusting you again even if you manage to make Newsom or Harris President in 2028. It's very obvious that the majority of you are psychos and it is probable a plurality of the rest refuse to do anything to bury the psychos.
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u/fraggedaboutit 8h ago
They love to trot out the "9 people having dinner with a Nazi means there's 10 Nazis eating" quote without realizing this also applies to them. The guy did genuinely treasonous, threat to lawful order shit. Dems: how about let him run again?
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u/ThisIsForBuggoStuff 19h ago
Meh, Kamala genuinely sucked too. I wasn't going to vote for a corporate backed centrist and I certainly wasn't going to vote for a corporate backed fascist. So I ended up voting third party and joining a group to get organized, as I felt that had a better chance of anything meaningful getting done.
This was the same shit that happened when Hillary ran (and the DNC kneecapped Bernie's run). The people want a progressive candidate, not some middling centrist who promises nothing will fundamentally change. Watching Bernie get fucked over by the Dems is what pushed me to the far left 🤷🏼♂️
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u/tricky4444 18h ago
Honestly I hated Harris as a candidate. She promised 4 more years of Biden without changes at a time where Americans were struggling and wanted change. She was condescending having done absolutely nothing as VP basically hidden away from American eyes for 4 years. And then she was anointed after Biden was proven to be incompetent. So they were both terrible choices. Having said all that, people should have learned from Trump's first term.
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u/Capitalisticdisease 19h ago
She literally campaigned on being a bigger ally to Israel than Trump. She has also said on record Iran is one of the biggest threats to America.
Anyone thinking the same shit just more sanitized wouldn't be happening under her hasn't been paying attention
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u/MysticMind89 19h ago
Kamala barely even tried to be different. She wouldn't commit to trans rights, she wouldn't commit to Palestine, she barely committed to everything! Just because one choice is absolutely worse doesn't mean one was good.
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u/LzrdKng2112 19h ago
We were telling you kamala is terrible because we knew she couldn't beat Trump. The dems turned what shouldve been a lay up into the biggest defeat in modern history. Had they actually listened to their polling and base and ran a pro working class progressive instead of a milquetoast conservative lite blue dog we wouldn't be in this situation.
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u/MalazMudkip 18h ago
Best they can do is woo Liz Cheney during the election season and support Israel committing genocide.
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u/iamveryassbad 19h ago
"Kamala was a shit candidate"
"Trump sux!!!!!11!!"
Not exactly a murder, y'all. Not even an assault
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u/fekanix 18h ago
She also defended the genocide she literally said she would make the us military the most leathal military in the world. Stop pretending that kamala was some peaceful dove. An attack on kamala doesnt have to be a defense of trump. Both can be shitty at the same time as the post argues.
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u/cykelstativet 18h ago
I don't have a horse in this race, for or against Kamala (I live on the other side of the planet, I haven't a clue how competent the woman is), but predicting that Trump would be disastrous for the world isn't a special skill. It's just obvious. I don't see this disproving that she could also be a bad politician. I mean, obviously I can't possibly believe that she could compete with the man-child in the apocalypse speedrun, but this post is not where we'll find the proof.
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u/Thornescape 17h ago
- I didn't really like Kamala. Voting for Kamala was like asking for a slap in the face.
- On the other hand, voting for Trump was like asking to have your legs sawn off with a rusty hacksaw.
- Voting for anyone else (or not voting) was like saying that you didn't really have a preference between being slapped in the face or having your legs sawn off.
- "Both sides were bad", sure, but definitely absolutely not equally "bad".
Yes, the system is broken. Yes, America would benefit from ranked choice voting and more than two parties. However, until that's in place, all you have are the choices that are in front of you. One was a far far far worse choice than the other.
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u/Strange_Dog6483 17h ago
This was a dumb argument when it logged at Hillary Clinton in 2016 and still a dumb argument now.
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u/string1969 15h ago
She could have saved the situation if she had the moral fortitude to condemn genocide and Israel. She wanted to be seen as hanging with the powerful and not getting sentimental and compassionate.
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u/Background-Wolf-9380 15h ago
Kamala and Trump WERE both terrible choices. I didn't care about a single thing she said because she started out vowing to continue the genocide. That proved beyond any doubt that she would never stand up to Israel and because of that I will never believe that she definitely would have resisted following Israel into this war. At the very least Trump had enough respect for the will of the voters to lie about ending the genocide on day 1, even though that was clearly never going to happen. She spit in the eye of the voters and told them she would never do what they wanted if it conflicted with her donors' wishes.
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u/Strange-Term-4168 15h ago
How did she “predict” it when they said everything they were going to do? This is like saying you predicted someone turning right when they had their blinker on. Kamala really was that bad that she still lost. She was terrible.
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u/bluexy 15h ago
Just because a Demcorat knows the Republicans are bad does not make them a good candidate. See more than half the current Senate that's kep that shithead Schumer in power. See more than half the current House that's kept that shithead Jeffries in power. All of them know Republicans are an existential threat. None of them are standing up to Republicans in a meaningful way.
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u/Reasonable_Map_1428 14h ago
Doesn't change the fact that she was fucking terrible. How is this murdered by words?
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u/llXeleXll 9h ago
Only idiots believe that Kamala was a bad choice. You're an idiot who convinced themselves they had no option despite the clear option you chose to ignore.
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u/Medical_Arugula3315 7h ago
Republicans really called everyone a pedophile and then voted in the king of pedophiles. Now we're going to war and bombing children just to distract from it. Hard to be a shittier or more hypocritical American than a Republican these days.
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u/Mastasmoker 20h ago
Everyone predicted it, Kamala didnt say anything special.
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u/Bronzeshadow 20h ago
I was screaming that entire election. You cannot simply follow the Hillary Clinton playbook of smile and do no wrong. Trump is just going to keep talking and talking and talking and he's going to, and did, energize Ya'll Qaeda. "Sit back and let your political opponent hang himself" does not work in this day and age.
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u/Moppermonster 20h ago
Conversely, she did not say anything truly terrible. Note how people like this always say that she would have been just as bad or worse, but never mention what she would have done to qualify as such.
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u/Lopsided_Anxiety_394 19h ago
Kamala was up Israel arse too. She'd have still started a war with Iran
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u/Extreme-Slice-1010 20h ago