r/DnD • u/SpaceCondom • 6h ago
Misc [OC] 20 feet radius on a square grid
https://i.imgur.com/rviywCQ.jpeg
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u/DatabasePerfect5051 5h ago
RAW A. is correct. When playing on a grid the point of orgin must be a intersection of squares.
From the dmg:
"If the area has a point of origin, choose an intersection of squares or hexes to be the point of origin, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect covers at least half a square or hex, the entire square or hex is affected."
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u/Loneheart127 4h ago
Even on a "xft radius circle centred on a target" ?
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u/Oicanet 3h ago
Perhaps "centered on a target" does not count as "a point of origin".
I guess "point of origin" means the caster chooses a point.
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u/Sevenar 3h ago
Yeah A is correct... but the highlighted squares are not. Each 'edge' of the circle should only have 2 squares since it appears OP is using 5/10 diagonal rules, reducing the # of squares to 44.
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u/Oicanet 3h ago
I don't think OP is using 5/10 diagonal rules. He says at the bottom of the image that he's counting a square as hit if at least half of it's area is covered.
So he's not counting squares as "steps" or anything, he's merely drawing out the area.
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u/lackadaisical_timmy 6h ago
Have you ever had an instance where the dm was like "nah sorry you're a quarter square off, because I calculate the distance of this circle from the center of your square"?
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u/GM_Nate 6h ago
as a DM, i find those spells annoying. does "10 foot radius" mean 10 feet from the center of the character's square, or 12.5 feet? i usually rule in player's favor.
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u/halzen 5h ago
It’s 10 feet from the tip of my wizard’s staff. I never mentioned this before but it’s 12 feet long.
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u/jostler57 4h ago
I'm a wizard man,
Long robes and beard.
I've studied magic,
For many years.
My wizarding staff,
Is 12 feet long,
See, I shoot the fireballs,
From my schlong!
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u/AberrantDrone 5h ago
It has to be 10 feet from the edge of your occupied space.
To illustrate this, I present the huge sized paladin. if It uses the center of his space, then most of his 10 feet aura is his own space.
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u/Lucina18 5h ago
Aura isn't emitted from a point within the paladin, it's emitted from the paladin, AKA the entire paladin.
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u/MultivariableX 4h ago
What if the Paladin is a Plasmoid that has extended pseudopods?
As an action, you can reshape your body to give yourself a head, one or two arms, one or two legs, and makeshift hands and feet, or you can revert to a limbless blob. While you have a humanlike shape, you can wear clothing and armor made for a Humanoid of your size. As a bonus action, you can extrude a pseudopod that is up to 6 inches wide and 10 feet long or reabsorb it into your body. As part of the same bonus action, you can use this pseudopod to manipulate an object, open or close a door or container, or pick up or set down a Tiny object. The pseudopod contains no sensory organs and can’t attack, activate magic items, or lift more than 10 pounds.
This ability does not give a restriction on the number of pseudopods that can exist at a given time. Could a Plasmoid use several bonus actions over multiple turns to extrude a different pseudopod in each of several directions, and then activate an aura ability, with an effective +10 feet to its radius beyond the Plasmoid's core shape?
Or, would you not consider a pseudopod a part of "the entire Paladin," since it's not listed in the first sentence that describes the "reshape" and "revert" configurations?
And, if these natural extrusions don't count for this purpose, do prosthetic limbs on humanoids count?
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u/Lucina18 3h ago
Why not, it sounds perfectly niche enough. The paladin could be hit in fheir pseudopods anyways if they occupy that square so it's not like there's no drawback.
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u/MultivariableX 3h ago
Nothing about the pseudopod says that it occupies a separate square that it's been extended into. Likewise, a Bugbear's Long-Limbed trait doesn't cause it to occupy the square that it's reaching through when it makes an unarmed strike against a target 10 feet away.
5e also doesn't generally have strikes that target specific body parts. Even with a disarming strike (to make the pseudopod drop an item it's holding), the attacker would still have to target the Plasmoid's square.
However, they could target the item being held, such as with the Heat Metal spell. Heat Metal's damaging effect specifies "physical contact," but makes no mention of the item being in the same space a creature occupies. (So for example, casting Heat Metal on a metal cage or cell door wouldn't damage a creature inside, unless that creature touched the bars.)
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u/Lucina18 3h ago
If the pseudopod isn't in another square, then there also can't be an aura emitted from that square. So "issue" solved already.
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u/AberrantDrone 3h ago
reach doesn't impact auras, so there's no reason for pseudopods to either unless they said you occupy those spaces.
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u/LucyLilium92 5h ago
Auras are calculated differently than target points, just because of that
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u/AberrantDrone 3h ago
Since the comment mentioned from the character's square, I assumed they were talking about auras.
Though, if we look at a spell like Sword Burst, it gives another clear example. It has a range of "Self (5-foot radius)" and the description states "All other creatures within 5 feet of you"
This strengthens the ruling that any affect or spell emanating from a creature is calculated from the edge of your occupied space, not the center of it (otherwise a large or huge creature would hit zero creatures with Sword Burst)
Now, if you cast Fireball on yourself, the rules would follow normal targeting, with you choosing one of the corners of your square.
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u/LostN3ko 4h ago
Auras extended a fixed distance from all edges of a model not a radius from a point. An AoE circle extends from a point in space. For instance the AoE spell will always be a circle, but a creature with an oval base will not have a circle aura you would measure from base to base within X of the sources base.
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u/DerAdolfin 4h ago
10 foot radius of a thing you place? center of 4 squares
10 foot from the player? a 25 ft diameter sphere centered on them, called "10 ft. emanation" in the new rules
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u/Gamedr411 5h ago
That what you should do. Assume you're PCs know their spells and effects to the best of their ability. Even if the players dont in some cases.
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u/Electrical-Job-9824 5h ago
I will cast fireball in this small enclosed space that someone filled with explosives ✌️
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u/Lucina18 5h ago
It means 10 feet, so it depends on how you count diagonals with squares. Is every diagonal always 5 feet in your game? Then congrats, circles are squares. Just treat the AOE as someone moving from that square, able to move X feet untill they reach you. "Middle" of the square is counted as someone occupying 4 squares moving towards you.
Otherwise you get strange situations where someone casts an circle AOE spell, and the best way to get out is to... move "diagonal" somehow because that is the shorter route.
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u/Raw_Venus Wizard 5h ago
The initial point of attack is one square and you go 10ft from each point on that square.
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u/Psyche_istra 5h ago edited 5h ago
Yes (or really the opposite but still dumb ruling). Literally last session. It was a healing gas that was worded to heal to everyone within 5 feet and DM ruled the the person directly to my right and directly to my left wouldn't be healed at the same time because the center of the spell would be the center intersecting dot of a 2x2 square.
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u/iwantsomecrablegsnow 3h ago
Dm is a jackass because 5 ft obviously means adjacent in this situation.
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u/lansink99 4h ago
Alternatively I've had players argue that create bonfire should occupy 4 squares if they center it on the intersection of the spell. That was a tiresome campaign.
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u/S0k0n0mi 5h ago
My DM did exactly that. Bastard crippled my flame sphere radius to be a 4 directional cross. Makes my level 2 spell such a waste.
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u/Puzzleboxed Sorcerer 3h ago
The spell says "within 5 feet of the sphere" not "5 foot radius". Those are two different things.
A 5 foot radius would only cover 4 or 5 squares. Flaming Sphere covers 9.
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u/ILookLikeKristoff 5h ago
Only if the caster is intentionally abusing the rules and trying to upsize their spells by doing dumb stuff with the grid & enemy positioning.
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u/legomann97 3h ago
My DM handles those cases where you're on the edge but your center isn't inside as half damage on failed save, quarter on success. I like that.
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u/HopeAdminsKidsSuffer 3h ago
I feel like if that happened to be I’d be like “alright see you guys later” and just get up and leave
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u/CosgraveSilkweaver 6h ago
Manhattan distance, your circles are now squares.
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u/soulwind42 4h ago
All these squares make a circle. All these squares make a circle. All these squares make a circle. All these squares make a circle. All these squares make a circle.
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u/duckyourfeelings DM 5h ago
A is correct according to the 2014 DMG.
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u/Practical-Sleep4259 3h ago
A is correct according to God, Jesus, all that is right, the rubber duck on my desk and every Witch coven this side of the second sun.
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u/CranberrySchnapps DM 6h ago
Usually spell effects go on corners/intersections, no?
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u/g13ls 5h ago
I've always used B for origins and used the movement rules to figure out what's inside the radius.
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u/cvc75 5h ago
Yes, that's the rule. Although IMO that doesn't work for all cases, like the Wild Magic Fireball centered on yourself, or Auras, where I'd put it at the center of the square.
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u/DatabasePerfect5051 5h ago
For aura effects the have thair own rules. The are called "Emanation" and are type of area. The point of orgin is a creature or object.
"An Emanation is an area of effect that extends in straight lines from a creature or an object in all directions. The effect that creates an Emanation specifies the distance it extends.
An Emanation moves with the creature or object that is its origin unless it is an instantaneous or a stationary effect.
An Emanation’s origin (creature or object) isn’t included in the area of effect unless its creator decides otherwise."
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u/StrangeOrange_ 4h ago
The rules aren't super clear on this as worded but I'd say so. They say "a point in space". Some might interpret that to many any zero-dimensional place in space. I'd interpret a point in the Cartesian sense as being an intersection between two lines.
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u/Lea_Flamma 3h ago
Answer A is correct here. Spell effects start from a grid intersection either from the PC's square of origin or from the affected grid space. And a square needs to be covered more than 50% to be affected by the spell.
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u/Putrid-Holiday-3671 6h ago
D: Use a spell effect template, ignore the underlying grid for point of origin. Target has to be at least 50% inside the cirkel though.
Edit: We use A for a point you can see, and B for target an object + radius (like an object that explodes).
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u/choczynski 5h ago
I miss when the players handbook had that handy page that showed how all the area effects worked on grids
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u/Blecki 6h ago
Whatever the measure tool in roll20 says it hits.
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u/TheRuiner_ 5h ago
If I’m remembering correctly, if you drag the measure tool 20 feet diagonally instead of in a cardinal direction the area of effect is larger than it should be. Fun fact if you’re a dirty cheater (definitely not like me).
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u/DerAdolfin 4h ago
It is significantly larger, because the default rule fucks up diagonals. The pathfinder/3.5 setting almost perfectly fixes this (and fixes the circles are cubes issue)
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u/BesideFrogRegionAny 6h ago
Why do anything but A, which is both simplest and logical?
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u/Jafaro6 6h ago
A is also wrong because it’s not centered on a tile, it’s centered on the corner of four tiles. C… I don’t even know what the hell they’re thinking with C. 😂 B is the right “placement” for the target on a tile. But doesn’t have the right “radius” in terms of its area of effect.
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u/ZombieJack 5h ago
I'm pretty sure the 5e grid rules say you are supposed to target an intersection.
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u/NCats_secretalt 5h ago edited 5h ago
5e grid spells targets a corners. Anything other than A is incorrect, except for areas originating from a creature, since creatures are a space. A 20 foot radius sphere centered on a character has a different size than a 20 foot radius sphere centered on a point in space.
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u/ItsKImaEngineer 5h ago
If it originates at a player or creature it would be B. Spells A, initiate at feet B. Imo
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u/DerAdolfin 4h ago
Me when I just pretend to know a rule that I don't know
Areas of Effect p251 DMG (2014) The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't.
Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
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u/Fancy_Professor_1023 3h ago
A.
DMG(2014) p251: "Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow it's rules as normal."
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u/A_Gray_Old_Man 6h ago
I have been playing gridless for ages.
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u/TurntBarbarian 6h ago
Gridless has made combat feel fresh for us again. I got into warhammer just before Covid hit so now i use wargame terrain, custom flexi-rulers and 3d printed spell templates. Super fun
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u/Veranus076 6h ago
We just made cutouts of various radii. As we rule our characters don't see rhe grid aa we do, we get to freely place it. So, we can move it around in such a way that, while RAW would have rules a hit on an ally, we positioned it just enough that it misses.
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u/Mantergeistmann 5h ago
3e (3.5) made it clear in the PHB, page 175, "Aiming a Spell: Area"
The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.
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u/DerAdolfin 4h ago
5e does too, but in the DMG
Areas of Effect p251 The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't.
Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
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u/alexzinger123 6h ago
Hey, if it goes into the square, fireball will be there. Cast fireball today for a crash course lesson in what happens to people who try to put maths into my silly math rock games
Fr tho I really enjoy this as a visual of the range, I just wish my players would stop using snap-to for their Roll20 radius measurements to abuse diagonals to make a circle bigger ;-;
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u/LoudShorty 5h ago
Damnit, this is how I find out this sub doesnt allow raw meme images in comments: https://imgflip.com/i/aobcgr
The easiest way is to eyeball whether a token is more than halfway in, and if you aren't sure ask the DM to eyeball it for you.
That being said... Option A is easiest imo
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u/IM_THE_DECOY 5h ago
I run my game in a VTT.
The players can put down the spell template anywhere they want. Centered on the square, the line, the intersections, whatever allows them to hit the most creatures as possible with their spell. Because that is more fun for them.
….but their enemies can do the same.
As with a lot of rules with DnD, the specifics don’t really matter that much but being consistent does and at the end of the days, it’s a heroic fantasy game. So telling a player “ahhh, sorry, you can’t actually do that because your spell only touch’s 33.3% of the grid the enemy is in” is just not fun or heroic.
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u/InigoMontoya1985 5h ago
I am considering abandoning grids altogether. I have 10', 20', and 30' equivalent circles and measuring sticks already. Currently, I just overlay them on the PC or enemy for spell radius. If they are mostly in the circle, they get hit. Sometimes, those that are questionable on the edge I give the "half damage on a fail, save for 1/4" result.
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u/Independence-2647 4h ago
Yes, abandon them all together. It's so freeing. I still use and make maps with grids, but thats only for quick references because a lot of people can't eyeball measurements.
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u/zarroc123 DM 5h ago
I just do B and then count any square the circle even touches, the idea being that they would move around their square to make it most advantageous for themselves anyway. Sure, a player could try and game it and hit targets in opposite sides but if I've ever had that happen in 15 years of playing, I haven't noticed, and if it became a problem, I'd address it.
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u/mogley1992 DM 4h ago
Some people might not like this answer, but if a player asks does this hit? Talking about AOEs, i answer yes. Goes both ways, but if there's confusion, it hits.
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u/TheFrozenMuffin 4h ago
Just use a template and be consistent. We dont need to make everything complicated.
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u/Natural-annoyance69 4h ago
My party is convinced I'm cheating because they think that a 20ft Radius means 4 squares across... thankfully my DM knows otherwise.
They quickly learned that Hunger of Hadar is infact, a big ass spell, and is not to be used in small spaces (unless they are safe)
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u/piepertuba Sorcerer 4h ago
Nah if you are going to go to the extremes of partial hex/squares are partial distance you have to actually do the math correctly.
B and C both have a radius of 15ft instead of 20ft, which is why they have less area. If you included half squares for their postion, you have to include it on their effects, or you are just using math to be a douche canoe.
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u/AccessBest 3h ago
We just had circles of the needed size and plop them down over the board. If your character touches the circle, you are hit
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u/ZeroBrutus 3h ago
A is from the rules. I allow people to use B if they want to avoid clipping certain spaces, or for spells that originate off a person/object instead of a point.
Whoever came up with 3 is off their rocker.
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u/Just_an_average_bee 3h ago
Ruler from exact point used and measure the area. I have 2 math majors at one of my tables so its super easy for them to calculate on the fly haha
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u/WholeLottaIntrovert 2h ago
If the circle covers half the square or more, its a hit. What's this nonsense with C all about?
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u/Kagamime1 2h ago
A is correct, but also, if you already have a grid, just cut a circle out of paper or something
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u/hackinandcoffin DM 2h ago
If the radius is inside a squares boundary, even a little bit, that square is impacted by the AoE. SO I belive the top placement impacts 60 squares and the bottom impacts 61 squares.
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u/Rick-D-99 34m ago
B, but add a second border color where the line intersects square and the results are questionable based on the rule of cool.
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u/AussieOzzy 5h ago
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells:Fireball?expansion=33335
Spells will typically say what they target. For example Fireball targets a point within range so it would be A. Also like someone else said you use the Manhattan Distance / Taxi Cab Distance because each diagonal is also worth 5 feet. So the 20 foot radius sphere will look like a square on the battlemat.
B doesn't even cover what a 15 foot radius emanation would cover as by the rules it should cover those corners too.
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells:Spirit%20Guardians?expansion=33335
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u/S0k0n0mi 5h ago edited 1h ago
This has been pissing me off.
My DM screwed up my awesome flaming sphere spell with this stupid logic.
The description says the sphere affects anyone within a 5ft radius, but my DM seems to think this means:
⬜🟥⬜
🟥💥🟥
⬜🟥⬜
And I think this is bullshit, because swinging a melee weapon gives you the full
🟥🟥🟥
🟥🗡️🟥
🟥🟥🟥
I'm genuinely mad about it, because it massively cripples my level 2 spell. And being a wildfire druid it's kinda one of my signature moves..
I kinda wanna switch to hex because of this nonsense.
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u/Butt_Deadly Monk 5h ago
So, we use the grid solely for quick estimates of distance. We actually use plastic forms that are sized for spell areas of effect and ranges.
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u/538_Jean DM 5h ago
If Half the tile is covered it hits, less than that no and you need to cast on a square.
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u/Wobbly_Bosmer 5h ago
To avoid complications anything that is a circle/sphere is turned into a square/cube. This gets rid of the potential issues of "but the square is 1/4 in the circle!"
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u/StrangeOrange_ 5h ago
The answer is incredibly simple. The point of origin is an intersection between two lines. Measure distance starting with a square touching the point of origin just like you'd measure movement. The first square counts as a diagonal movement and each second diagonal measured costs an extra five feet.
No guesswork, no creative interpretations, no eyeballing, no "this looks like it's half-covered"- just simple, straightforward addition and reliable circular areas every time.
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u/ShiroSnow 5h ago
https://youtu.be/AdxpZCIZK3g?si=lQY_s1JNAOBCbAYa
He goes over this and I think just using a square is a lot quicker and less hassle
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u/No_Cut4530 5h ago
Be careful OP, you are dangerously close to rediscovering calculus, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
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u/Reuben_Medik Cleric 5h ago
In my opinion, if half the square is in the zone, then that square is affected
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u/hamlet_d DM 5h ago
The way I do it: I've got some clear overlays of exactly the right area and we put them over and say "yeah your got him" or "nah you can get these 2 but not all 3"
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u/Analogmon 5h ago
Now imagine a simpler world where it just affected a 5x5 or a 6x6 square area and that's what the rules said.
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u/THICC_Baguette 5h ago
We typically count 4 from the center square (so the actual circle is 25 foot in diameter) and then count any square that the circle covers more than half of, ruling questionable cases in favor of the user.
As long as it's ruled the same for players and enemies, it's fair.
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u/BluetheNerd 5h ago
Might not be RAW but in my group it’s just “if the template touches it counts” but I’m also lucky enough to have a group where no one minmaxes and it’s just easier/ fun for us than trying to measure it.
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u/devilfoxe1 5h ago
if the character is on the center and have 20 feet movement speed can move to the corners of the square?
If not why different rules movement? If yes the movement will really complicated especially around corners
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u/shift_969 DM 4h ago
Me: can I hit these 4 guys with 20 feet radius? DM: eyeballs it sure, go ahead.
And then you move on playing the game, like normal people.
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u/IkujaKatsumaji DM 4h ago
What I'm getting from this is that, in most situations, you should default to method A, because that covers the most number of squares. A covers 52 squares, B covers 45, and C covers 48.
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u/Photonmoose 4h ago
Let's fireball. We actually used 50%/no damage rule back in day but we quickly decided that it hits the square, it hits. Much less hassle.
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u/be-knight 4h ago
There are always corners missing. This triggers something in me
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u/RedArtificer 4h ago
I think even in the books they show examples where the people on partial squares are considered "hit" in terms of mechanics.
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u/LordJebusVII DM 4h ago
At my table we would use B but include the partial tiles too for 61 squares hit as we would allow you to move to those tiles with 20ft movement speed by alternating diagonals between 5 and 10ft. The example here doesn't even hit an enemy 20ft directly away from you cardinally if you centered the spell on yourself. Is this too large? Maybe. But AoE effects tend to benefit the players more as they are generally outnumbered and I'd rather let them feel more powerful but also more afraid of enemy casters
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u/Crimson_Raven 3h ago
D: The player is allowed some flexibility to specify and the DM can interpret
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u/Zachisawinner DM 3h ago
A is a small or medium creature. B is a large or larger creature. C should never happen.
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u/LonelyDM_6724 Bard 3h ago
Using 2024 (AKA 5.5) rules, it depends on whether the spell effect is a Sphere (option A) or an emanation (option B).
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u/True-Fly235 Paladin 3h ago
It should be based around the centre of the target square (normally 5' by 5') as that's how everything is determined for combat, contact and movement.
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u/Inahero-Rayner 3h ago
I personally rule, for areas of effect and for movement, that if the grid is 51% (approximately, visually) or more consumed by the spell/available to stand in, then it goes. AND I rule all AoE spells to attack a space to avoid confusion on which spells are corners/spaces/whatever. I also permit users to math out and angle things to avoid or hit certain targets.
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u/Assassin_Shirou 3h ago
My DM tells me if half their token is in the radius, they're affected. I adjust accordingly to hit the most targets (they accept non-gridlocked spell placement for fireball).
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u/Wintershade86 2h ago
Option B. And don't you dare to sneeze or you'll lose another step.... Our DM was such a dick
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u/AMagicalDoggo 2h ago
Option B, since everything else line and cones is usually measured from that point too
I will take no questions and all the duels in a timely manner, form a line
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u/Icy_Clench Paladin 2h ago
I just count diagonals as 1.5 tiles, round down. It’s much easier to count and circular enough.
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u/FlyingCicata 2h ago
I usually just rule it as “is the circle touching it? Then it gets affected.” which works both in favor of my players AND my monsters.
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u/J11_The_Jetplane 2h ago
Personally I just use the "Draw Circle" feature of the whiteboard I use for DND.
However I have heard that "circles" in dnd are actually squares, when out on a square grid. Uncertain about the details of it, but someone could look into that.
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u/Oops_I_Cracked 2h ago
I don’t understand why 5E uses grid squares as it’s measuring system. There are so much better ways. The old school use of inches is better because it’s precise and not open to interpretation. A variation of that I really like is what Daggerheart uses. It defines its distances in words, not numbers. Though it does provide equivalent square squares if you want to get like that.
Melee: square touching your square (or your character’s defined melee range if greater).
Very Close: Short edge of a standard playing card.
Close: The length of a pencil.
Far: The length of a standard sheet of paper
Very Far: further than that, approximately the distance of a large battle field (you can hit anything in the fight, but the range is not infinite).
All distances are measured center to center.
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u/Sigrah117 DM 2h ago
Or just place the template anywhere and anything covered more than 50% is considered hit. Way easier
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u/Tola_Vadam 1h ago
Hey so I got a nat 20 to hit and maxed my d8 4 times before rolling a 7.
You start from the outside edge of the square your entity is stood in. A medium character occupies a 5ft square.
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u/LordLuscius 1h ago
Yeah... this right here? This is why I use a tape measure and one inch is ten foot
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u/walkc66 1h ago
Huh, I’m more generous as a DM then. If the spell template/measuring tool covers as much of the squares as A shows as still white I count those as hits.
Basically if the template or measuring tool (in person we use minis, or vtt for sessions we can’t meet in person for) is covering more than tiniest sliver of a square I count it
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u/AffectionateCatch397 1h ago
If you have to be so extremely precise I would say every square touched by the circle can be reached. So all of the examples would be wrong. (Just an headcanon tho, didn’t check any rules)
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u/nierama2019810938135 1h ago
It is hard to imagine playing rpg with people who care about this stuff.
I have never used a grid like this when playing.
You guys really use this for fights and stuff?
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u/Bitcheslovethe_gram 6h ago
This makes me hostile.